I'm sick and tired of not getting pass through's with traditional equipment. I hit a buck last night and didn't get a complete pass through. It was broadside at about 20yds. As it ran off, the arrow appeared to be midway through the ribcage half way up the body. I watched the deer run off about 75yds and cross a creek. I got down right away and as soon as I hit the ground, the sky's opened up. I went to where I last saw the deer and of course because of the rain I didn't find any blood. Since it was almost dark, I didn't want to push it. I have been on too many trailing jobs at night where the deer was pushed and never recovered. I figured I would do a grid or loop search in the morning and despite the rain I'd find it where it bedded down. I looked for 4 hours in every possible direction from where I last saw it and never found it. I suspect that when a deer is hit and the arrow exits out the other side it doesn't know what happened, and as a result it does not panic. This happened last week on a doe I hit. I hit her at dusk and went back the next morning and there she was 150yds from the stand. If on the other hand the arrow stays inside and "flops" around while the deer is running, it panics, and just continues to run until it drops. I hunted with a compound for 10+ years and only had 1 arrow stay inside and that one hit the opposite shoulder. I just don't think that traditional tackle has the kinetic energy to give you pass through shots. I shoot cut on contact Magnus heads so I'm not loosing energy "punching" through the hide.
Man I'm am sorry you had a bad experience but just look at the posts on here about deer that have been taken and you'll see that trad gear is more than adequate to achieve a pass thru. I cannot speak from experience as this is my first season with trad gear, but post after post shows pass throughs on deer, hogs, elk, moose, you name it. I don't know what your set-up is, but if it is tuned well, I'll bet it has the energy to send a sharp broadhead through a deer. You are not going to get a pass through on every shot, but they are certainly not uncommon.
Give yourself a day or two to calm down and then re-evaluate. Check your tuning, check the sharpness of your broadheads, etc. I am sure some other more experienced trad hunters can give you example after example of pass throughs with even light poundage bows.
Hang in there,
Mark
If you search this sight and ask experienced stickbow hunters you will find pass through being very common.
There are so many things that work into penetration but specifically there are a few things you might want to consider concerning equipment:
-What poundage of bow do you shoot?
- Are the broadheads razor sharp, not just kind of sharp?
- Do you get good arrow flight?
- What is the weight of your arrows?
- What arrow material?
- And finally what is your draw length?
If you'd like some good reading on how well a trad bow can penetrate tough animals take a look at Dr. Ashby's reports on broadhead and arrow efficiency. If guys go after water and cape buffalo and kill them cleanly with trad equipment I see no issue with lighter equipment on thin skinned deer size animals. Also try emailing Paul Brunner about his buffalo or look at the dangerous game forum.
For me the hunting with trad equipment is not just about getting pass throughs and dead deer, but it is about the challenge and satisfaction of chasing game with my own handmade equipment. Now, this is not to say that I don't want to kill the deer cleanly, but I believe my setup to be more than sufficient. If you are still so worried so much about it then go back to the compound. You won't be having fun if you don't have confidence in what you're shooting. Matt
Depends alot on your setup. I've seen people talk about getting complete pass throughs with 30lbs. If your shooting a realy light arrow that could be the problem too. A heavier arrow will penetrate better. You don't get as flat of flight but penetration is better.
Ya i shot a 48 lb recurve and ive gotten pass throughs on every deer ive shot with it including a 205 pound buck. The most important thing is placement, but what is your set up? maybe we could help but we need that info...Curtis
what setup are you shooting??
dont give up on trad just yet.
Answer the questions above and we can offer some suggestions. I shoot a 64# longbow for big Ontario deer and have had pass throughs on every deer to date. These are big deer not them little Jersey deer you guys have, I've got buddies in Jersey so I know what size deer you have. You are either shooting to light a set up or shot angle is not good. Perhaps your stands are too high up? If we can kill moose with trad gear you can kill Jersey deer.
I have a 63#@28" Big East Recurve. I shoot Carbon Express Heritage 250's (spined for 60-70lbs) and 135 grain Magnus heads. This was the first time I used the 4 bladed head. My stand is 16ft. high.
And thanks for the time, I guess I'm just down from the lost game. I've been hunting 29 years and this is the fourth one I've lost and each time is the same. I really enjoy shooting my recurves and I shoot 3" groups at 25yds.
Mike,
I've never had a pass-thru on a shot. My freezer is full. It don't make no never mind to me.
Conan,
If you're not getting pass throughs on deer with a 63# Big East, my best guess is that there's a tuning problem somewhere. The first thing I'd do is bareshaft tune your bow. The shooter's forum has a lot of good info on the subject.
Big East recurves had a reputation for speed. My homemade bows don't, so if I had to guess, I'd say you've probably got as much energy in your rig as I had in the one I took to Ontario last September. I got a complete pass through on my bull moose, including splitting a rib on the exit side. If I can do it on a moose, you should be zipping through deer like they're pieces of paper.
Seriously, take some time and bareshaft tune your rig. I think you'll see an amazing difference in penetration as a result.
Conan,
I don't blame you for being down about losing an animal. I wouldn't respect anyone who didn't get upset about it.
Unfortunately, I can't offer much advice. You seem to have enough bow draw weight and heavy enough arrows. The one thing I would look at is arrow flight. You can lose a lot of energy if this is not good.
Good luck,
Allen
Conan Just at a glance I'd say the carbons you are using are right on the border of too weak. You don't mention if you're drawing 28" or less or more nor how long your arrows are; but I'd have to say if you're not getting pass throughs with your set up, like Jason said, you have a tuning problem. I'd also say at a glance your arrows are too light. It looks like less than 8 grains per pound of draw weight. That is almost certainly part of your problem.It appears you still have the wheelbow mind set wanting a light fast arrow. Mass is important in the penetration equation. I have a solution.......... :bigsmyl:
Get yourself some Gold Tip 5575 and front load them. That is to say, put more weight in the head end of the shaft. I shoot a 63# @29" hybrid longbow with 5575s with 400 grains up front. I can pert near gaurantee I'll shoot through anything I hit. Bob Morrison gets complete pass throughs shooting 47# with 300 grains up front.I'd start with 250 grains and work up 20 grains at a time until I had the best flight.
Sometimes a guy has plain ol' bad luck. I had the same thing happen to me in Canada, but it was a really nice bear and a compound bow. Blood trail washed out over night, unable to recover the bear. It was found a couple months later about 75 yards further on into the bush from where we lost the trail...
If it's raining or going to rain, I don't deer hunt on those days...
Conan,
Jason and C2 are onto your problem. I would recommend more up front weight. Try some 160gr STOS with a 125gr steel insert - 285gr up front or use 100gr brass insert. I use 280gr and up to 380gr on all my carbons. You will not believe how well they will fly with all that weight up front. Give it a try, the added kenetic energy should solve tour problem. I'd send you some to try but homeland security would lock me up for sending sharp pointy things cross the border. Good luck.
hunt it----I sent some Rocky Mountain broadheads across to Canada. No problem at all.
57# longbow.
550 grain CX250.
Arrow on the ground on the other side of a 170# buck.
I would check your arrow flight first, then take a look at how sharp those heads are. Sounds to me like you should be hitting dirt on almost every shot with that setup.
...and hestiantly, for reasons I'd rather not go into, check your bow's draw weight on several reliable scales and average them. I had several B.E. that were marked one thing but drew WAAAYYY heavier. The weights were the same on 3 shop scales and 2, come to think of it, bowyer's scales!!!
This would compound (no pun intended) your spine problem since you may already be teetering on the light side...
Spine not only is draw weight, but the amount of center cut on the riser. Just do as suggested and do some bare shaft testing..take your time... find that maximum balance between bow and arrow and watch em zip.
I shoot over 600 gr. arrows outa 48-50# bows and get pass throughs, too. Shot put vs. wiffle ball stuff, but there are a lot of energy robbing variables in a arrow that isn't behaving well...
Good luck!
Conan,
Some good advice has already been offered regarding tuning. Additionally....you need to be very honest with yourself.....are you really drawing your bow to anchor or is there a chance you might be short drawing during the heat of things???
There is no reason why your setup shouldn't blow through just about anything assuming proper shot placement.
Brett
I agree with everything that was said here about the importance of tuning and arrow weight. Ol Adcock has a very good section on bareshafting and tuning-that would be a good place to go. I hunt from the ground but I'd have a tough time getting both lungs with the difficult angle your stand height presents unless the deer is really far away. Would some expert tree stand hunters comment please?
You know....
Bareshafting is the ultimate answer here. However...
If you are a consistent enough shooter to soot 3" groups, I would recommend shooting a group with your broadheads mounted. If your arrows are not on the money spin wise, that group is going to grow to 12" or more and show you immediately where the problem lies.
If you are still shooting 3" groups, then arrow spine is not the issue.
You have some serious issue not to be getting good penetration with a 63# bow and carbon arrows I doubt you could be so badly tunned and not notice poor arrow flight.
I also suspect in the excitement you are not reaching any where near full draw. Done it myself a few times and really have to concintrate.
There has to be something going on to cause this lack of penetration.
My twelve yr old son shot his first trad deer two weeks ago and while his arrow did not pass through
his broadhead was through the opposite side. At his draw length he is geting 39lbs. His arrows weigh 410 grains, led by Zwickey Eskimos.
My personal set-up is a 63lb recurve and 610 grain carbon arrows with big Zwickey Deltas. If I don`t get a pass-thru it is because a big bone has been encountered. I don`t remember a single
time when my arrow did not make two holes.
I just wonder if you are not reaching full draw as Rico mentioned.
If you hit a rib bone, deer will almost always panic, regardless of a little twig hanging out of them or not.
I've had many deer without passthroughs, even with compounds, but never lost one. Always they took off at warp speed, but none made it 100 yards. My 43lb LB didn't manage to get through the off shoulder last week... but still left enough blood for a blind man. Put it in the boiler room. There is always anecdotal exceptions, but generally if you hit vital organs with razor broadheads, deer are just not that hard to kill. While passthroughs are preferable, and every effort should be made to acheive them, they are also not required.
Don't let the bad luck of a sudden downpoor get to you. Once the deer-loss mourning period begins to fade, get your arrows tuned, follow Ashby and get back on the horse.
I want to echo some of what others have said. If you are drawing the full 28 inches, your arrows are pretty much on the weak side, especially with broadheads mounted. An arrow that doesn't fly true is a disaster on penetration. I shoot 60# @ 29 and have to use the Carbon Express 350's with 125 grain broadheads. With heavier broadheads up front, even the 350's are a little weak.
First thing I would do is some bareshafting WITH the BROADHEADS on the arrows. I would venture to guess you will find them very weak spined with a bow that heavy.
yeah you have a setup problem somewhere-maybe in weight or FOC? still those arras should be blow throughs at that poundage. never can tell-sometimes they just dont go through.
Shame but keep after it
J
Conan-
I understand your being upset.Although I agree with all the other guy's.Sometimes it dosn't matter who you are,when a dark cloud moves in over you It just seems like it will never blow away.Bad luck is just that bad luck.
I have been hunting for over 35 yrs,and yes I have lost a few also.Thats just part of archery.We don't like it but nevertheless its going to happen.And we would only be lying to ourself to think otherwise.And trust me,Compond shooters live with it also.
Dont put to much weight on a arrow being stuck in the grond to be a deadly shot.As long as the arrow cuts vital organs thats what counts.
I know some may disagree,but Im going to say it anyway.Im old school,I like wood or aluminum arrows.I like some weight in my arrow.If you like the carbon arrows maybe try alittle more weight in your carbon.The bow Im shooting this year Is one of my carbon limb bows fast-flight string 59# @ 32', 2219 arrow 125 Magnus 640grns.Most all shots on deer sized animals I find the arrow in the ground.But with that being said, I see that only as over kill.
I know I got abit long winded in this but I would hate to see you give up such a wouderful sport for the wrong reason.Hang-on old friend,your luck will change.-Mike
I'll get some brass inserts and weight tubes from 3 Rivers.
tune it up and don't look over the option of using a string tracker, better than losing a deer. keep with it and good luck. Tim
Nobody see the 800# gorilla in the room? Pass throughs are nice, but not necessary to killing a deer. If you've lost the last 4 deer you've shot with trad equipment, Look to your shot selection and placement, and perhaps tracking skills, not equipment.
steertalker mentioned if you are coming to full draw when shooting from your treestand. With a bow longer than the average arrow; its difficult to get in a position in treestands where you come to a complete draw.
There is another gorilla in the room; that is your personal attitude. When you release an arrow; you can do more bad in a split second with a trad bow- than you perhaps can with a 'whatever those bow things are called now' bow. ( that IS a guess )
I can neuter a gnat with one shot; and miss by three feet the next - if I am not in total control until the arrow hits the target.
If your carrying the burden of thinking failure; it could be affecting your release; and therefore the shot. So too can being OVER confidant in your shooting... to where when you shoot at animals; you can loose concentration at the release.
Arrows can porpoise; they can wiggle back and forth- like a salmon about to jump the hoover dam.
First thing in your description that came to my mind was sharpness of the broadhead. Second was that your release might be bad.
With the hit description you should have killed the deer; but you did sound a bit defeatist in how you looked at the situation after the hit. That could effect your tracking of the deer.
I have put arrows totally through elk; deer; bears etc; and I have also killed many animals where the arrow did NOT pass through.
This fall I shot under a deer; hitting its front leg way down low; and with some hard tracking - I got that deer. Its not all about blood sign; its about figuring out where the animal is going; if it tends to go left or right at obstacles; the side its hit on; the cover; the distance between imprints. A hit deer will leave a more distinct track...
But I can tell you that if your not committed to finding the animal- due to weather or doubt of somekind; it is not going to help your tracking.
I shoot two blade broadheads; and 4 blade zwickeys; which have not so much 4 blades as two tiny blades that seem to relieve the friction on the arrow surface- more than anything. I do not - because of experience with all kinds of game - shoot real 4 blade heads. If your release is not perfect using a 3 or 4 blade CAN screw up a kill.
When I was tracking lots of bears hit with the new 'compound bow'; they were often not tuned. The arrows would come out porpoising; and when they hit ribs; they would stop right there.
Three blade heads would hit with two blades; the untuned arrow would sent energy to the remaining blade; and the arrow would often actually flip over or under the bear. We often would see a bear shot this way a week later when it fell to another arrow; and I had a degree at that time: in what we now call criminal forensics. I inspected each wound with great seriousness.
Then; as now - tuning a bow was a big factor in the ability of an arrow to penetrate. So is release.
Keep your broadheads sharp; tune that bow; watch your arrow flight up to 80 yards; and do not give up. You can kill a deer with your bow !
Traditional archery will not give up on you; please do not give up on traditional archery :)
Thanks to all for your time and advice. I've been hunting with a stick n'string for 12 years and taken about 25 deer and 2 hogs with it. I'm not going to give it up (I just felt horrible) and I realize that it was a marginal hit since I didn't find it w/in 100yds. I just hope he makes it. A buddy of mine marginally hit a buck with his compound years back and I got it during the gun season in the same general area. It still had his broadhead in it. I'm going to try insert tubes and heavier brass inserts for more upfront weight. That should help.
Orion- Just to clear up the misconception about the 800lb gorilla. I've taken about 30 deer in 25yrs of bowhunting and lost 4, not the last 4. As far as I am concerned 1 is too many.
Hey Conan,
You've gotten some good advice here. I've had a similar issue with penetration that you've experienced. I think that some of mine was caused by shooting a multi-blade head. But, honestly, I think sometimes it's just "one of those things". I hit a buck in the ribs with a three blade broadhead a few years back. It was really sharp, the arrow was bare-shaft tuned and flew like it should, and the weight was right around 600 grains. The shot was from a 58 lbs at 28 inch recurve, drawn to 28.5 inches. I was able to recover the deer, but I destroyed a rib on the way in, and the arrow was stopped on a rib on the other side. I don't know why. I don't know if I ever will. I've also shot through a couple of bears and a few deer with this bow. Two with three blade heads, the rest with two blades.
I feel for you. Do everything you can to get your arrows flying well with broadheads. Practice a lot. Take good shots. Those things you can control, other things sometimes just happen. Don't beat yourself up too much over it, but on the other hand I like your attitude that 1 is too many. It means it matters to you and that is a good thing. I wish you the best of luck with your next shot.
Stan
Conan,
We know you're not a quitter- you're just upset over the thought of wounding an animal. As traditionalists, out of necessity we put a lot of effort into our hunting and when things don't turn out well- it stings. And a streak of misfortune is gut wrenching, but we've ALL been through it at some point in our hunting career.
It is important to remind yourself that no animal is ever wasted in Ma natures' way of fang, claw, disease and starvation. It's not like the animals we hunt EVER die of a less cruel fate than an arrow. Whether an arrow is followed by field dressing chores and a sense of accomplishment, OR A PACK OF COYOTES no animal is ever wasted.
When you calm down, think things through. If you're shooting a 63# bow, the issue is NOT that you are using traditional gear. Something else is going on even if it is not yet apparent. Think about the SHOT, REALLY think about it. What did you do differently in the excitement of the moment compared to when you're shooting 3" groups during no pressure practice sessions?
Think about it and you WILL work it out...
Conan,
Wsup Dude....try this, it helped me out... proper shooting alignment. shoulders/wrist/elbow & arrow should all be in-line with each other.
I did not read all the post, but I get complete pass-thrus with 52# bow on a consistent basis. If ya shoot 3" groups at 25 yards you are one of the better Trad shooters out there. I have shot with a lot of guys and not many can do that. I would agree with JRW that yamay have a tuning issue. I would say ya need a bit more weight up front on those 250s. I shoulder shot a doe last week, the arrow went right thru the center of the near shoulder and hit the off shoulder low neqar the leg and it stuck to "s out the other side. No doubt if I had hit 6"s farther back it would of stuck in the ground on the other side. Make sure your heads are very sharp as well, I see guys hunting with heads that I would not target practice with. Shawn
Pass throughs are nice, but if you get 8" or so of penetration on a broadside deer, you'll fully double lung it. The critter will be just as dead as if the arrow passed through.
If the hit is good, it's about the tracking, and even then sometimes the conditions conspire against a a guy. Just a fact of bowhunting.
As a comparison, when I was shooting compounds of 55-60lbs and 400 grain carbons, a pass through was a 50/50 proposition. I got a lot more when I was shooting 450 grain 2213's. My wife shoots a 45# Matthews with 380 grain carbons and rarely gets pass throughs but kills and recovers her deer. She's a superbly accurate archer and picks her shots carefully. She won the ND State 3D Women's title in 01'.
Frankly, I have much more confidence in a 20 yard pass though from one of my 50-55 lbs recurves shooting 525 grain 2413's with shaving sharp 2 blade Magnus or 3 blade Snuffers, than in my compound setups gathering dust in the closet...
Very good advice by all. I often get pass throughs on my bows of 42# - 47#...so I echo what others have said about tuning, adding point weight, etc. In addition, I agree that attitude is important, proper shot selection essential, and a quick check on shooting form an imperative. I also want to underscore the point that has already been made relative to concentration...total focus on the intended point of impact from the pre-aim through the arrow's strike. Any minor lapse in this intense focus will negatively impact your shot...as once muscle memory (the mechanics of the shot)are ingrained in your body, it is the mind that pulls it all together and directs the path of the arrow. When I have had problems with my shot in the past, it is this vital component of concentration that has typically required my attention. Fixing that, fixed everything.
Hang in there!
Claudia
Quotetotal focus on the intended point of impact from the pre-aim through the arrow's strike. Any minor lapse in this intense focus will negatively impact your shot
I'm not a very good shot, but I second Claudia's comment here. I have found my best shooting occurs when I never take my mind / eye off that spot I'm aiming at until I see the arrow hit it.
My grandfather taught me to play golf, and his most useful contribution to my meager playing ability was the phrase "see the club hit the ball." It truly helps me. And I think "seeing the arrow all the way to the point of impact" and not letting your concentration on "the spot" waver until it hits, is critical.
BillJ
I just watched a program called Maximum Archery on the Outdoor Channel. A guy with a compound bow, Carbon Express arrow, shot an elk right in the heart lung area from twenty yards and the arrow only penetrated about ten inches. It was downright disgusting to see him hold his thumb in the air and say great shot. They got the elk the next morning. My old lemonwood bow with a Howard Hill head would have penetrated better than that.
It's more about arrow flight, tuning and using appropriate broadheads.
Conan said: "Thanks to all for your time and advice. I've been hunting with a stick n'string for 12 years and taken about 25 deer and 2 hogs with it. I'm not going to give it up (I just felt horrible) and I realize that it was a marginal hit since I didn't find it w/in 100yds"
OOPs - a misunderstanding Conan! When I hunted in Michigan over 20 years ago- the bowclubs had us record the distance of the shot; and the location of the hit and such; and everything showed at that time that the distance of the shot increased the distance of the blood trail.
In my personal experience- and in the studies- a double lung hit deer will run about 60 yards; well within the 100 yards you mentioned. But hit the heart- and the deer will OFTEN push itself to about 180 yards. A gut shot deer might run 5 yards and lay down; and that is not a good hit. If you hit both lungs; and a leg bone on the other side it might push the deer past the 60 yards- even though it was a good hit. I made a quarting away shot on a bull elk that tore a huge hole in the liver; and hit lung. It ran over 350 yards before piling up. Liver hit deer - although hit mortally will often push beyond 100 yards.
I don't know if you just said 100 yards as an off the cuff statement; but - if your really thinking a deer well hit should drop within 100 yards - well cheer up- they go further when mortally hit.
I hope Conan that you; or anyone else- is taking this in anyway as a 'jump on Conan' thing. There are lots of people that ask a question - that the answers too : are heard by well...... 14,000 people !
That is a GREAT thing. :)
Me: I am envious of your shot grouping :)
that funny, compounds are mentioned several times here, but when i did it, my post got pulled!
I can shoot consistant groups with my reflex/deflex but i am very disappointed in it. I am use to stacking arrows with my PSE at 30yds. I do not expect to get a pass through with my reflex simply because it does not have the speed my PSE does. Even if they both pull the same, an arrow traveling at 325fps will go deeper and further than an arrow traveling 175-200fps. If ya can get a double lung or a lung/heart shot, you dont need a pass through anyway. i have not had a double lung or a lung/heart hit deer go further than 20 yards pass through or not.
I've replayed the shot over and over in my head and realize that I did not pick a spot. As the Deer was walking in front of me I drew and as I was approaching anchor I saw that there was a branch in the way of the spot I had originally picked to shoot at. I waited until he passed the branch and never made the adjustment of repicking a spot. I just drew, anchored, and released. As a consequence I believe I probably hit him in the shoulder which of course caused the poor penetration. I've just resigned myself to add weight tubes to the shafts and either brass inserts or weights to the front of the arrows to increase the upfront weight.
I recently tried weight tubes on some GT 55/75's with a 160 grain bradhead and they made the arrows fly in a very strange way. Switched to a 100gn broadhead adaptor and no weight tube and although the weight dropped from 700gns to 630grns the flight was WAY better. I think because of the increased FOC. Weight tubes can bring your FOC back 'cause they ?grns per inch to the shaft and there are more inches behind the balance point then in front. Go for the heavy insert/adaptor/2blade braodhead...
I experimented with brass inserts in carbon arrows to add weight/increase penetration of carbons. Got great arrow flight, I'm just not big on carbon arrows for Trad so I settled on Easton 2413's...
Something I've wondered about, being from the west and only shooting one animal from a tree....
when you guys are up a tree 16 feet and the deer are right below you, it must be difficult to draw to a full anchor. To me it would seem logical to place the stand where I could shoot farther out if my stand was higher than 8 - 10 feet. Then it would be easier to draw full length because I'm not bending over as much....one inch shorter on the draw leads to many foot pounds of energy lost, and much momentum lost.
in order to be the best at anything you must be the worst
I didn't read passed page 2....but if you can't pass through a deer with a decent weight hunting bow,......there is a serious problem somewhere.
Like many stated just on the 1st page....deer are not hard to pass through at all.