Would like to hear everyone's opinion on what they believe to be the best cold weather clothing. I have a few different types of cold weather clothing(kom, cabelas w/windshear, protec scent blocker w/windproof lining) but have not really found the one that I would get rid of the rest for. Also what you think the best bang for your buck is.
Thanks, Nick
I like Patagonia capiene and R series base layers. Can't go wrong with the older KOM wool eaither.
The ticket to cold weather is layering!!! I wear 100% wool sweaters, UNDER my hunting clothes. I have worn a pair of wool pants & 2 heavy wool sweaters under my light Camo hunting clothes, and been toasty warm to -20 degrees!!!
Keep what you have, (that's bought & paid for) and get some good base layers so you can dress for whatever weather.
Heater body suit is the real deal. For me, there isn't even a close second. When it gets really cold, you'll find me in the bag! The bonus is being able to walk to the stand wearing very little and not having to carry those bulky outer layers.
Day One Camo wool pull over and high wasted pants. Great tightly woven wool. Excellent craftsmanship. I really like the ASAT pattern.
IWOM..... never been cold yet, but I hunt PA so I never tested it in super cold weather. I'd still say I'd be warm.
I have an awesome collection of wool, from super thin merino to extra thick and heavy. I layer it based on the weather.
I cannot fathom hunting in the cold without wool.
I sat one year in early january to try and fill a tag. I had on merino wool base layer. Cabelas berber fleece pants and an asbell wool coat. My midlayers were quit thin. I wanted to see how long i could last that night. It was -1 when I left in the dark. Was pretty impressed to say the least.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jasper2:
Heater body suit is the real deal. For me, there isn't even a close second. When it gets really cold, you'll find me in the bag! The bonus is being able to walk to the stand wearing very little and not having to carry those bulky outer layers.
Yep.
I wear gray wolf wool until it gets really cold then it's the HBS.
Heater body suit ,period!
I know it's sacrilege (don't shoot me!), but for sitting still in cold weather, wool is junk. Base layers don't matter. And layering makes no difference. Let me explain.
Wool has it's place for other roles, but keeping one warm when idle is not it. You can't wear enough of it; trust me, I've tried. That's why you see so many folks recommend things like the HBS, super-insulated pac boots, and electric or chemical warmers.
Think about this: why don't you see wool sleeping bags? Because it is not a great insulator for keeping an idle person warm! The best cold-weather insulation is down! I have a couple different-thickness down puffy jackets to wear as a midlayer, and some Primaloft insulated pants. And with those alone, I can be comfortable wearing uninsulated rubber boots and usually even no gloves!
Warmth is thickness. My "big" down puffy has about 1" of loft. Whether that inch of loft comes from 8 layers of heavy wool (good luck affording that, much less moving underneath it!), or 32 layers of magic wicking poly base layers, or any combination, it's all the same warmth. But no material on earth provides more loft for less weight than down.
I've tried everything else, and have since sold my nice woolens, and never been more comfortable in the stand. I know you're supposed to wear wool if you're on TradGang, but it just doesn't work in the treestand! And you can shop online sales (or Costco) for down jackets cheaper than just about any other more common hunting substitute.
Pete
Idk Pete, 1or2 wool blankets, kept the Frontiersmen & Indians warm, long before sleeping bags were ever invented.....
as well as wool Army blankets that have been used for ever. wool is all I wear to stay warm in cold weather.
Not to be argumentative, but Wisconsin, Michigan, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania all chimed in that wool is a good insulator and keeps them warm in the stand. Virginia comes out and says its worthless. Take that for what it is. As someone who has spent many an hour in a sub zero stand and 4 years sleeping under a military wool blanket I say wool works awesome. Unless its windy and then a wind blocker of some sort works wonders.
Yep, about the reaction I figured, and that's fine. But have any of you ever actually TRIED down (or even synthetic insulation) in the stand?
Hey, use what works best for you, by all means! I'm just saying that I've used both (am I the only one?), and there's no comparison. Until somebody can weave a wool jacket that has at least 1" of loft, weighs less than a pound, and costs $100, I'm never going back for treestand sitting.
And if you read about back in the frontier days when they slept under wool blankets, they also had to get up and rekindle the fire every hour. Not my idea of warm or comfortable. Wool was the best they had back then, but no longer.
I have used an Army wool blanket for many years both in tree stand and on the ground during bitter cold tempts, pretty much does was the "body suit" does at a fraction of the cost. it is pretty much all I use, wool bibs, pants, shirts, socks ect, never a problem here staying warm....
The problem I have found with so many synthetic and down garments is not that they fail to work; rather, It is that the covering fabric is often very noisy.
My preference for really cold would be a wool outer cover over down - as long as the weather is dry. Luckily, down here in the mild Georgia winters, I can use my military field jacket (a bit noisy) with a wool sweater, or I can use my Asbell wool with another layer beneath.
QuoteOriginally posted by PistolPete:
I know it's sacrilege (don't shoot me!), but for sitting still in cold weather, wool is junk. Base layers don't matter. And layering makes no difference. Let me explain.
Wool has it's place for other roles, but keeping one warm when idle is not it. You can't wear enough of it; trust me, I've tried. That's why you see so many folks recommend things like the HBS, super-insulated pac boots, and electric or chemical warmers.
Think about this: why don't you see wool sleeping bags? Because it is not a great insulator for keeping an idle person warm! The best cold-weather insulation is down! I have a couple different-thickness down puffy jackets to wear as a midlayer, and some Primaloft insulated pants. And with those alone, I can be comfortable wearing uninsulated rubber boots and usually even no gloves!
Warmth is thickness. My "big" down puffy has about 1" of loft. Whether that inch of loft comes from 8 layers of heavy wool (good luck affording that, much less moving underneath it!), or 32 layers of magic wicking poly base layers, or any combination, it's all the same warmth. But no material on earth provides more loft for less weight than down.
I've tried everything else, and have since sold my nice woolens, and never been more comfortable in the stand. I know you're supposed to wear wool if you're on TradGang, but it just doesn't work in the treestand! And you can shop online sales (or Costco) for down jackets cheaper than just about any other more common hunting substitute.
Pete
"Wool Is Junk" says the guy from VA.
Ok....good luck with your noisy, worthless when wet down garment.
This guy from VA loves wool. The correct layers is the key. Wool is different from down, I wouldn't say I'm warm as toast just comfortable .
QuoteOriginally posted by PistolPete:
Yep, about the reaction I figured, and that's fine. But have any of you ever actually TRIED down (or even synthetic insulation) in the stand?
Hey, use what works best for you, by all means! I'm just saying that I've used both (am I the only one?), and there's no comparison. Until somebody can weave a wool jacket that has at least 1" of loft, weighs less than a pound, and costs $100, I'm never going back for treestand sitting.
And if you read about back in the frontier days when they slept under wool blankets, they also had to get up and rekindle the fire every hour. Not my idea of warm or comfortable. Wool was the best they had back then, but no longer.
Yes, I have "tried down" in actual cold weather hunting conditions, and I suspect you have not. It is loud, absolutely worthless when wet, and quickly shreds into a trail of small feathers should it be worn in thick areas. Down has virtually zero wind blocking ability.
Down jackets certainly are warm, in a sleeping bag, sitting in the stands watching football, etc. But for actually being out in the woods, in a situation where durability and stealth matter, you are as wrong as wrong can be.
If you had stated that some other modern material works well.... Sitka Gear comes to mind.....I would have shrugged off your comments as "different preference". But to claim a puffy down coat is better in a treestand than wool? You honestly don't know what you are talking about.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h227/rnorris/Shrewhaven2014066_zpsa89d7c76.jpg) (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/rnorris/media/Shrewhaven2014066_zpsa89d7c76.jpg.html)
I have found it very important to keep your head and neck and face covered to help stay warm.
Eating propper food before the hunt and during the hunt in cold weather is very important part no one thinks about.
Not getting over heated and not sweating is vital.
Wool is heavy, Not very windproof and stinks when wet and is expensive. It has its place though it is warm compared to most material today. Polar fleece is great but wind goes right through it. Under garment fleece. Yep works great.
As an outer. It's soft and quiet.
Especially the softness that it provides compared to the hard/sheen of modern camo.
Prima loft provides a great under layer. That's why Kuiu makes it.
I wear it all and is a system for us to use.
The reply to the individual on his thoughts and findings about his preferred garments are uncalled for. No need to attack here. We are brothers here. Let's act like it.
Not an attack.....but calling wool "junk" and recommending a down filled coat instead is out there.
Kuiu makes a great product, and as I said, had the guy recommended some other synthetic alternative, I would have shrugged it off.
By the way, wool is extremely windproof, properly cared for does not "stink" when wet, and does not need to be expensive (yes, some wool is way over priced).
There are certainly other materials besides wool that work. But to refer to it as "junk" is an insult. I'm not having it. Recommending a puffy down coat as a bowhunting garment is bad advice. Not having that either.
X-2 Thank You, Roger!
Pete, Spent many a night in the woods, rolled up in nothing but 1 wool blanket. (no fire, btw) Wet & Sub zero temps included. Maybe us "Northern Boys" are just "heartier"...??
I've owned a lot of wool.
MUCH wool.
I think wool was the best thing going 150 years ago.
I think there are many options today if one goes about things with an open mind.
I've got a set of Sitka Gear Fanatic bibs and coat that are quiet, wind proof, and WARM that I prefer to all the wool I have ever owned put together.
But, I like to tinker and try new things looking for what I think is best.
I've been in a lot of places that are just a little bit more wild than the local whitetail woods and I've worn a lot of wool there. Today I prefer modern fabrics and insulation wherever I go.
As Roger correctly stated, I have a different preference and it is based on field testing. Your mileage may vary...
Steve O and I have discussed this many times, and I completely respect his opinion and experience. Any non-wool hunting garment I own was bought because Steve recommended it.
My favorite time is late season. It can get cold. Wool for me. I also try to pick cold weather spots. Tree stands are brutal when it is cold and or blowing. I like to use a Hot Seat as well. Wool hat and neck gaiter. Good boots that aren't tight fitting. Wool socks. And a High Cal fatty breakfast.
Oh, Roger. I invite you to read my initial post. Never did I recommend hiking in a puffy, nor wearing one in the rain - we're talking about cold weather here. You must not have worn much down if you say it has no wind resistance. And your comment about Sitka is completely counter to your entire argument. Sitka makes puffy jackets, including down! I'm sorry that the underperformance of wool apparently personally insults you, but you'll need to work that out on your own.
As I said, use what you like. But you can't argue that down and even synthetic insulation is better/lighter/cheaper than wool at keeping a stationary person warm. Refer back to my sleeping bag example. But hey, I'm from Virginia, so I must not know anything ;)
If a person likes wool, have at it. But you'll also see lots of recommendations for "band-aid" fixes for being underdressed for cold weather, such as heaters, hand warmers, HBS, wooly buggers, pac boots, etc. I had to use most if not all of those when I tried to wear my expensive wool too. But no longer.
And yes, puffy jackets are noisier. I wear a light layer over mine, and none of the deer I've shot have ever complained. Why should I be more concerned about noise than a deer is?
Best of luck this fall.
Pete
No Pete, you aren't insulting me at all. What you said was "wool is junk". It is a foolish and broad brush statement. Wool has no "underperformance" issue. Quite the contrary.
And I can CERTAINLY argue that your synthetic recomendations are not up to par with wool. Yes, there are great quality synthetic garments. I refer to Sitka because my friend Steve O uses and recommends them. You will note that he doesn't make some blanket statement such as "wool is junk". And you didn't recomend anything like Steve did.....you recomended a puffy down filled coat. And wool "just doesn't work in the treestand"???? The treestand on a bitter day is where wool SHINES.
Your paragraph on "Band Aids" makes no sense to me. I hunt in some of the coldest weather that Michigan has to offer (I'm going to suggest to you that Michigan probably has an uglier winter than VA). I don't supplement my wool garment with any kind of heater, body suit, none of that. Pack boots? If the need arises, certainly. But that has nothing to do with wool pants and over garment. Same with handwarmers. Keeping gloveless fingers warm during single digit days sometimes takes a little work. If you are saying that your puffy down coat allows you to ignore your hands and feet....well, I don't believe you.
With regard to noise...you will never convince me that "a light layer" over your puffy down filled coat equates the noise/movement level to wool. If you can hear it, a deer can hear it.
Just last night on my sit, the wind stopped, and a doe and fawn came through. I was glad that I had no intention of shooting, because there is no way I could have made ANY movement quiet enough. In that case the arrow drawing across my rest would have been to loud...and the rustle of a down coat (however muffled by your over garment) would have been INFINITELY louder.
10 yards, dead silent...wool trumps down filled coat every time.
Folks, I think one of the problems with stating personal preferences like in this thread as if they should work for everyone, can be illustrated by a statement made by a English army commander in the earlier 1800's. In today's vernacular it goes something like 'In general, all generalities are false, including this one'.
Years of research by the US Armed forces and more recently fine companies like Sitka and First Lite can show the key to keeping warm or cool is how we manage what they call 'our micro-climate'. This is the climate that exists between your skin and outermost layer of clothing you are wearing at the time. An example. If you sweat and have no means to let the moisture from your skin escape to the atomosphere, your micro-climate will have a high humidity. It's scientific fact the wettter the atomosphere the harder it is to keep the human body warm or cool, depending on the season. Just think about how you feel in the summer when its 90 degrees and 90% humidity. Hard to cool down since our sweat cannot easily evaporate from our skin which is our main source of cooling. In the winter, high humidity in our micro-climate has a lot of moisture being held next to our skin and water can conduct the heat out of our bodies more quickly than dry air. So staying warm in cold weather can be tough if our micro-climate is too wet.
Studies show it's key to keep our micro-climate under 40% humidity. The problem is no two people perspire the same whether we're sitting on a stand, still hunting, or moving briskly. We each have to find the right combination of materials to wick the moisture off our skin and let most of it pass to the atomosphere without letting wind penetrate and chilling us.
Sounds to me like Roger has found a system that works for him consisting of various layers of wool depending on outside temp.
It also sounds to me like Pistol Pete has not been able to find a system of wool layers that does the job for him. But has found other traditional materials that do work.
Others, like SteveO have found some of the modern material systems like Sitka, do a better job for him than anything else.
From where I sit, they are all right in terms of works best for them individually. The problem begins when we each take individual solutions that work well for us, and 'generalize' they should work well for everybody. I think it's far better, factually, and less likely to be wrongly interpreted if we preface our statements with something like, 'this is what works for me'/
As the EPA says on all mileage estimates, 'Your mileage may vary."
Folks, I think one of the problems with stating personal preferences like in this thread as if they should work for everyone, can be illustrated by a statement made by a English army commander in the earlier 1800's. In today's vernacular it goes something like 'In general, all generalities are false, including this one'.
Years of research by the US Armed forces and more recently fine companies like Sitka and First Lite can show the key to keeping warm or cool is how we manage what they call 'our micro-climate'. This is the climate that exists between your skin and outermost layer of clothing you are wearing at the time. An example. If you sweat and have no means to let the moisture from your skin escape to the atomosphere, your micro-climate will have a high humidity. It's scientific fact the wettter the atomosphere the harder it is to keep the human body warm or cool, depending on the season. Just think about how you feel in the summer when its 90 degrees and 90% humidity. Hard to cool down since our sweat cannot easily evaporate from our skin which is our main source of cooling. In the winter, high humidity in our micro-climate has a lot of moisture being held next to our skin and water can conduct the heat out of our bodies more quickly than dry air. So staying warm in cold weather can be tough if our micro-climate is too wet.
Studies show it's key to keep our micro-climate under 40% humidity. The problem is no two people perspire the same whether we're sitting on a stand, still hunting, or moving briskly. We each have to find the right combination of materials to wick the moisture off our skin and let most of it pass to the atomosphere without letting wind penetrate and chilling us.
Sounds to me like Roger has found a system that works for him consisting of various layers of wool depending on outside temp.
It also sounds to me like Pistol Pete has not been able to find a system of wool layers that does the job for him. But has found other traditional materials that do work.
Others, like SteveO have found some of the modern material systems like Sitka, do a better job for him than anything else.
From where I sit, they are all right in terms of works best for them individually. The problem begins when we each take individual solutions that work well for us, and 'generalize' they should work well for everybody. I think it's far better, factually, and less likely to be wrongly interpreted if we preface our statements with something like, 'this is what works for me'/
As the EPA says on all mileage estimates, 'Your mileage may vary."
X3
QuoteOriginally posted by George Vernon:
Folks, I think one of the problems with stating personal preferences like in this thread as if they should work for everyone, can be illustrated by a statement made by a English army commander in the earlier 1800's. In today's vernacular it goes something like 'In general, all generalities are false, including this one'.
Years of research by the US Armed forces and more recently fine companies like Sitka and First Lite can show the key to keeping warm or cool is how we manage what they call 'our micro-climate'. This is the climate that exists between your skin and outermost layer of clothing you are wearing at the time. An example. If you sweat and have no means to let the moisture from your skin escape to the atomosphere, your micro-climate will have a high humidity. It's scientific fact the wettter the atomosphere the harder it is to keep the human body warm or cool, depending on the season. Just think about how you feel in the summer when its 90 degrees and 90% humidity. Hard to cool down since our sweat cannot easily evaporate from our skin which is our main source of cooling. In the winter, high humidity in our micro-climate has a lot of moisture being held next to our skin and water can conduct the heat out of our bodies more quickly than dry air. So staying warm in cold weather can be tough if our micro-climate is too wet.
Studies show it's key to keep our micro-climate under 40% humidity. The problem is no two people perspire the same whether we're sitting on a stand, still hunting, or moving briskly. We each have to find the right combination of materials to wick the moisture off our skin and let most of it pass to the atomosphere without letting wind penetrate and chilling us.
Sounds to me like Roger has found a system that works for him consisting of various layers of wool depending on outside temp.
It also sounds to me like Pistol Pete has not been able to find a system of wool layers that does the job for him. But has found other traditional materials that do work.
Others, like SteveO have found some of the modern material systems like Sitka, do a better job for him than anything else.
From where I sit, they are all right in terms of works best for them individually. The problem begins when we each take individual solutions that work well for us, and 'generalize' they should work well for everybody. I think it's far better, factually, and less likely to be wrongly interpreted if we preface our statements with something like, 'this is what works for me'/
As the EPA says on all mileage estimates, 'Your mileage may vary."
Yep. Generalizations are generally wrong. If the fellow from VA hadn't said "wool is junk", I would have never even posted more than I already had.
I like Patagonia capiene and R series base layers. Can't go wrong with the older KOM wool eaither.
Wool is great stuff when you're moving. Down is the king for sitting still and that's a fact and it is indeed why sleeping bags aren't filled with wool. When was the last time anyone used a wool bag on Everest? Never is the answer. Those original settlers would have loved down and that's why we have more down duvets than wool ones.
I'm not says that wool won't keep a feller warm but in really cold temps it's not enough. Anything colder than -15C requires some careful consideration for the average mortal to be able to sit for hours on a steel platform. I was wearing my down vast just a couple nights ago and yup its noisy but put under my fleece jacket it was nice and quiet, like it always is.
Unless you've sat on a stand at -25C (-15F?) you have less understanding of what cold really is. A heater body suit or something similar is the only way to go on the really cold days.
Yep for real warmth when not moving it's tough to beat a down or artificial down puffy on top.
I got a First Lite puffy this year and used it in Alaska down to 15 degrees without getting even cool.
Wool layers are great for moving but when I want to sit still, it's puffies for me.
Mike
Folks, I think one of the problems with stating personal preferences like in this thread as if they should work for everyone, can be illustrated by a statement made by a English army commander in the earlier 1800's. In today's vernacular it goes something like 'In general, all generalities are false, including this one'.
Years of research by the US Armed forces and more recently fine companies like Sitka and First Lite can show the key to keeping warm or cool is how we manage what they call 'our micro-climate'. This is the climate that exists between your skin and outermost layer of clothing you are wearing at the time. An example. If you sweat and have no means to let the moisture from your skin escape to the atomosphere, your micro-climate will have a high humidity. It's scientific fact the wettter the atomosphere the harder it is to keep the human body warm or cool, depending on the season. Just think about how you feel in the summer when its 90 degrees and 90% humidity. Hard to cool down since our sweat cannot easily evaporate from our skin which is our main source of cooling. In the winter, high humidity in our micro-climate has a lot of moisture being held next to our skin and water can conduct the heat out of our bodies more quickly than dry air. So staying warm in cold weather can be tough if our micro-climate is too wet.
Studies show it's key to keep our micro-climate under 40% humidity. The problem is no two people perspire the same whether we're sitting on a stand, still hunting, or moving briskly. We each have to find the right combination of materials to wick the moisture off our skin and let most of it pass to the atomosphere without letting wind penetrate and chilling us.
Sounds to me like Roger has found a system that works for him consisting of various layers of wool depending on outside temp.
It also sounds to me like Pistol Pete has not been able to find a system of wool layers that does the job for him. But has found other traditional materials that do work.
Others, like SteveO have found some of the modern material systems like Sitka, do a better job for him than anything else.
From where I sit, they are all right in terms of works best for them individually. The problem begins when we each take individual solutions that work well for us, and 'generalize' they should work well for everybody. I think it's far better, factually, and less likely to be wrongly interpreted if we preface our statements with something like, 'this is what works for me'/
As the EPA says on all mileage estimates, 'Your mileage may vary."
If you're sitting and not on the move, the Heater Body Suit is the only way I can stay warm for prolonged periods of time.
I don't think this isnt personal opinion as much as what works or doesn't, based on facts. These facts are confirmed by many people in many sports, be it mountain climbing, winter camping, ice fishing,not the military etc.
I'll also mention that if you want really technical (efficient) clothing then looking outside of the hunting stores is a good idea. Places like mountain equipment co-op etc. do indeed have clothing that far outperforms that sold in hunting stores. Problem is the colours they come in and noise they make. Colours can be overcome by something as simple as an ASAT leafy suit. Noise can be really toned down by wearing a layer of fleece over the noisy clothing.
I like wool, but the simple fact is there are several good options out there nowadays and some are likely better than wool. Clothing aside, cold tolerance is highly variable. For example, by the third day of a week long cold weather hunt in let's say temps in the teens and 20's, I'll tolerate the cold much better than I did the first day....my body is getting accustomed and my brain is starting to just accept the cold as normal. if you work indoors all week, sleep in a warm bed, and then Saturday morning go out and sit in the woods in cold weather, you're probably going to feel that cold no matter what clothes you wear, and if you make some mistakes like getting sweaty on the way in or are wearing inappropriate clothes you're really going to feel it. The clothes you wear are just one of a few factors that determine how much cold you can handle.
Steve O nailed it. Sitka gear is the best stuff ever for a whitetail Hunter. I wore all the best wool money can buy for the last 15 years. Now except for a few "nostalgia" garments it all sits in the closet. I'm actually considering doubling everything I've ever bought from Sitka just incase they were to change it or even worse go out of business.
Also, keep in mind that Nick's original question included opinions on the best "bang for your buck". I don't doubt the quality of high end wool or sitka gear but many guys don't want to shell out that kind of coin. I stand by my original recommendation of a heater body suit. $380 or less and you are done... problem solved as long as you are sitting still. They are confident enough to offer a money back guarantee if you get cold. Made in Wisconsin, where they know cold!
Take care,
Jason
I was pondering these thoughts last night as I sat waiting for a moose to magically appear. It was cold, wet and snowy...temps hovering just around freezing so not really cold yet but with the dampness it was cold enough.
No one has mentioned the effect of the wind. It'll draw the heat out of you faster than you can imagine and that's where wool by itself fails, same with fleece. So f you're cold get one of your layers to be windproof, preferably an outer layer to keep the heat in beneath it.
Also even though I don't like them much, hoods will keep you warmer than just headwear. Obviously a hood an a warm hat will be the fest of both worlds.
This is another one of those circular discussions. People keep going round and round about which is best. Simply accept the fact that some prefer one while some prefer the other. As long as you stay comfortably warm, there is no wrong or right opinion. To each, his own. As an aside, few have brought out how well wool and down work in combination.
If it is really cold I will put my camo warm-up pants over my shorts. :)
:archer2:
Maybe I should move to Texas! I'm tired of being cold.