So this weekend I was doing my last minute things to get ready for deer season. Putting my stands out and tending my cameras.
We were driving down the road to the last stand location when we spotted a hog 50 yards from the road feeding through an open field with about 2-2.5 foot weeds. We drove past the critter and once out of site (apx 100 yds), I dove from the side be side as my friend kept driving. I scurried under the fence and made a move to cut the hog off. I circled around through some thick brush and came upon the field. She was 27 yards away. But with the weeds obscuring her view I maneuvered until I had a 5" diameter oak between us. I moved forward quickly to close the distance before the tree would no longer conceal me. I closed the gap perfectly. She appeared, but the darned weeds obscured all but her top third. She got to where I thought I could see half of her body. Anchor, aim, shoot. "Perfect, right where I was aiming", my arrow skimmed just above the top of the weeds, and hit home... as she wheeled away I was discouraged by the amount of arrow sticking out of her. I may have gotten 3-5" of penetration. No blood to be found. I followed her trail and found my arrow, broken, about 2" behind the point.
So "perfect" shot, no pig.
Lesson learned. I think the weeds concealed her body enough that I didn't properly identify her anatomy, I may have caught shoulder. My arrow was slightly above the horizontal center line. Looking at terry's hog shot placement pics, I feel fairly confident that my arrow was near the shoulder crease or at most 2-3" into the shoulder. But not so far forward to catch scapula. However we all know how things happen fast and things get misremembered. The sow was maybe 150 lbs, but im not the best at guessing live weight. She was 28-36" tall at the shoulders based on the weeds.
Anyway im shooting a palmer recurve, 58#@30.5", but I draw it to 27", so apx 50# draw im guessing. The arrow was a 29" 5mm Easton FMJ 400, with a grizzly single bevel, total arrow weight of 475 grains. The broadhead admittedly wasn't as sharp as it could've been, about 2/3rds of the blade's surface could shave. I forgot to bring my kme with me after practicing, so I just quickly touched it up on a stone freehand.
475 grains is obviously on the lower end of things when it comes to hogs...about 9.5 gr per pound. But I was thinking it would get through the <150 lb hogs ive been seeing. I'm shooting pretty awesome with the combo. Fairly consistent to 35 yards with broadheads, and the flight is straight. Bareshaft and broahead tuned. I think the 475 grain arrow with zwickey delta's should do the job on deer....BUT...
Is it time to move up in arrow weight? I really like how i'm shooting with the 475 grain arrow. Using a 3 under and fixed crawl combo. Point on at 25 and 35 yards. But if it cant make it far enough into a hog...well it casts doubts on whether it would poke 2 holes through a big buck.
I kinda want to stay with the Easton axis series, just because I have a stash of brass inserts. But im semi-open to others.
Running the calcs on 3 rivers it seems my bow likes a 72-74# dynamic spine.
How accurate is the spine calculator?
If I go with a 29" 340 spine axis trad with 75 grain insert and 150 grain head that gets me to a dynamic spine of 72.8 with a arrow weight of 540 grains.
or I could go 29" 340 fmj with the same point and get 571 grains.
Or do I go to a 300 spine??? That seems pretty darned stiff. This is where I kinda loose faith in the calculator, but ive never experimented with shafts this stiff.
A 29" Easton fmj 300 with 75 grain insert and a 190 gr point gets me a dymanic spine of 73.7#, and 630 grains...or I could go regular axis 300 and end with 590 grains.
One hesitation about going too high in weight is my point on distances may drop too quick. Id like to have a point on at 30 if possible.
The only thing I see wrong is shot placement. More than likely the hit was high and/or too far forward.
If your shooting is good and your arrows flying great just shoot them low and tight next time.
And I don't think you lost the animal because of your broadhead being dull... not sharp enough.
I'd bet it was a bad shot placement, personally. All i shoot is around 475-500 grain arrows and I haven't had a hog complain yet. I've put 2 holes in EVERY thing i've shot.
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
The only thing I see wrong is shot placement. More than likely the hit was high and/or too far forward.
If your shooting is good and your arrows flying great just shoot them low and tight next time.
And I don't think you lost the animal because of your broadhead being dull... not sharp enough.
Charlie posted this a statement a few years back that really god my little mouse to turning.
"a sharp broadhead adds pounds to your bow".
I have since tried to get my broadheads absolutely as sharp as i possibly can. With some heads thats "scary sharp". With other heads its just sharp enough. Some heads are just easier to sharpen than others.
One thing I've learned from using spine calculators is to never trust them. Sometimes they're spot on and others they're way off, and I'm anal about all my specs. The best thing I've come up with for try trying new arrow setups is buying a few arrows from Lancaster, rather than a full dozen. I think 300s would be way too stiff for you. I can't shoot them out of any of my bow's and I shoot about 56@30.
I might add a 1.5" piece of 2020 shafting as a footing to the end of your arrow to beef up the front, not a big fan of the HIT system on its own, and that'll bring you to 5/16" for more field point options. 2020s also work for 340s.
Also, I'd consider shooting a different bow. If that bow was made for a 30.5" draw, it's probably not performing very well at 27".
My take is that you hit something hard enough to break your shaft, so how sharp your broadhead was doesn't enter into the equation. Based on your description, it was likely the spine of scapula or the spine. The spine dips lower that you would think, and the hog can duck very quickly. It sounds like it broke behind the HIY insert, which is unusual. Maybe damage from heat during installation,
Or maybe sheared off from when she took off. I personally prefer a more energetic setup for big hogs, but this doesn't sound all that large, so I really don't think it was a problem with equipment that would be solved by any changes to your setup.
Imo, anything above center line on a hog is to high! Even at center line can be marginal at best. Unless it's a downward angle from an elevated position. I only base this from my own experience.
Critter getter has it! The most common mistake I se with pigs, is hitting them too high, and with a pig, too high is about the centerline. Above that is all bone and muscle. A hit only an inch above the belly line though will kill them quick as. you almost cant go too low untill you shoot underneath.
What you describe is a classic slightly high shot that would have looked like you nailed it and leads to much frustration trying to work out what went wrong.
I hear you guys on the sharpness.... I guess this trip was akin to why a farmer carries a .22 in his truck. The odds of seeing a coyote are slim, but the time you don't have it you see one. So the head definitely wasn't as sharp as it should've been (but still could shave, but only just).
I don't think the arrow snapped when it hit. due to the arrow sticking straight out of the hog for the first sprint. I think a broken shaft would've drooped. The arrow was about 50 yards down the trail.
I'll probably order some 340 axis trads and see where they land. that'll at least get me 50-100 grains more weight by the time I get a point tuned. And I may look into getting a 2020 to foot them. (if they don't work for this one they will work for my other bow).
And as far as my bow being too inefficient... Thats probably not the cause of failure...seeing that I shot it head to head with about every recurve in rmsg's shop and that's the one that drew the smoothest and cast an arrow the best (per pound of draw weight)...even though the limbs would probably be more efficient if designed for a 27" draw.
I did just get a fox breed that's about 60# at my draw (64#@29). it thumps a target with a 650 grain arrow. To about 15 yards i'm pretty good with it. But its just too much bow for me at the moment to shoot much further and be consistent. I'm still working on maintaining my form at that weight and tuning my arrows to it.
It sounds like all the factors are pointing towards a scapula hit. Chalk it up as a lesson learned about waiting a bit for better reference points on anatomy before aiming. Great stalk though :knothead:
Thanks for the input everybody
I'm still learning these piggies!!! Its a different critter when hunting with a bow. That shot with a rifle would've probably taken it due to shock.
Reviewing the dissected pig in the hog shot placement post, it seems like I may have been towards the top of the ribs :/
Thanks crittergetter and shanks
I think you should shoot what your most comfortable and accurate with. Putting a sharp broad head in the right spot is way more important than draw weight vs draw length ect... ( within reason)
And yes, hogs are a whole different ball of wax! Shoot em low and tight to the shoulder and it's a done deal. Now if I could only do that every time! :banghead:
I think you should shoot what your most comfortable and accurate with. Putting a sharp broad head in the right spot is way more important than draw weight vs draw length ect... ( within reason)
And yes, hogs are a whole different ball of wax! Shoot em low and tight to the shoulder and it's a done deal. Now if I could only do that every time! :knothead:
I've shot a lot of pigs with FMJ 340s.... Have only had one "failure", AFTER a complete pass through...snapped in the same place as it sounds like yours did when it dug into the ground. I believe a 3:1 head creates torque on the deepest part of the HIT....I started footing them as mentioned above.
Also I'm a big fan of very high FOC on pigs, in case something does go wrong.
Thanks everyone for the input.
My goal for the fmj's was to make an elk arrow. Turned out they tuned out at 475 grains, lol. Oops. Guess I should've went stiffer. Anyway this gives me a valid reason to spend more money on arrows!!! :p
(Although shot placement was the factor here... Don't argue with my logic!!! :goldtooth: )
So is a 2020 the right shaft to foot a 340 axis read with?
Would highly suspect that the perceived shot placement was different from the actual mark.
Not an uncommon occurrence.
One of the hardest shots to make is high grass or weeds.Next time make yourself shoot low into the cover.Try it sometime with a 3D placed in high weeds.
That's a good point 3 arrows. I definitely avoided shooting through the weeds, since I wasn't sure what the effect would be on the arrow. The weeds were probably 1-2 yards in front of the hog. Not sure if they would've deflected the arrow or not.
I think your arrow is too light and your bow does not perform best when it is made for a 30" draw.
1.)I like shafts that are standard 5/16". That gives you plenty of options for inserts etc.
The HIT System is imho a system for the compound crew,as they can adjust their bow also for the arrow on a wider margin.
We traditional shooters need to adjust the arrows to our bows.
If your shaft is too light and your arrow flies perfect, then glue tight fitting cord behind your insert. You can do that full length, or better 2/3 or 1/3 for increased FOC and "weight taper" effect.
2.) Shot placement likely too high
3.) Two blades are great penetrators but often lousy blood trailers. I rather have a Wensel Woodsman Style head especially in heavy cover. If you have no blood trailing dog, you will need a bloodtrail to follow for recovery.
Ask bisch on here he's always wacking pigs and uses FMJ for his setup and kills em I would say your shot placement was a factor also!
I think you are over calculating your draw weight at 27" ... it might be more like 46-47 ... a really sharp bh is always best.
I shoot Axis 500 arrows 29 1/2" with 100 grain inserts and 145 gr BH's and coming in at 562 gr ... so if your shooting 400's I would add weight before going to a higher spine especially with your shorter draw.
I have hunted hogs several times and they are tough buggers ... good luck to you in the future and keep those BH's sharp !.
Now that you have all our advice...we should cross paths since we're both in big D.
I am obsessive about my arras!
I use the footings that Vintage Archery (Tuffhead) sells, yes, glorified aluminum shaft, but fit like socks on a rooster!
Installed with JB Weld, and you will have to find a new topic, because they are near indestructible on the front end.
elkken,
You may be right on the draw weight. I think this bow just likes a stiff arrow. Id be hesitant to go too much heavier on point weight, and the arrow is at 29", I don't really want to go much shorter. I did kindof a combo tuning exercise...bareshaft and broadhead tuned. I bareshafted a single fmj 400, and it liked what it liked. standard insert and around 150 gr head. Then I broadhead tuned another arrow. Again, apx 150 head was pretty perfect. I varied my point weights from 100 gr to 300 gr with the aluminum and brass inserts (both with field points on the bareshaft and broadheads on the fletched). That way I could see the arrow fly weak....then straight...then stiff... Then of course I went back to the best flying combo. And the big ol zwickey delta's are flying god to 35 yards. Haven't tried my old sasquatch's yet, but I don't intend to use them hunting.
Also the arrows that RMSG set me up with were 29" carbon express heritage 250's (also about a .400 spine if I recall), with 150 gr points. So it definitely likes the 400's with about 150 gr point. The 340's will be here soon. I'll probably load up the brass inserts and repeat my tuning process. Hopefully end up with an apx 600 grain arrow.
TexasKing,
I did join the IBA. I might just go out there tomorrow night and shoot the little 3d course.