With the hunting getting started and we are all getting our gear ready , I was remembering a debate that was going on in the 1970s .
It was about sharpening broadheads .
There was good points on both sides .
Here goes .
Sharpen a broadhead to the finest honed edge as possible .
This blade will cut with no shock and therefore blood vessels will open and bleeding will be faster .
The other way is to file the edge with a burr and strop or knife steel the edge to straighten it up .
This leaves a micro serrated edge that will grab a blood vessel , thus cutting instead of sliding past it .
I think this debate got started when the razor type changeable heads were starting to hit the market .
I personally don't think it makes any difference except for the file edge is easier .
So do any of you remember this ?
And what do you think ?
I wasn't around in the 70s but I have heard this discussion before from older bowhunting videos in my collection. I remember a video of Paul Brunner explaining that leaving the burr is best for the very reason you've stated above. Personally I have never left my broadheads with the burr, I just feel better when I can see them taking hairs from my arms with ease.
Yep, I remember that.
I just try to get my BHs shaving sharp and leave the debating to others. Too busy shooting and hunting!
Stone heads have killed more meat than steel ever will. That really tosses a wrench in the gears when you stop and think about stone heads and how they are made.
I like to see them shaving as well--- but either way works when it's put in the right spot.....
I file, run thru a Rada set of wheels, then strop, takes the hair right off my arm......That's good enough for me.
QuoteOriginally posted by PEARL DRUMS:
Stone heads have killed more meat than steel ever will. That really tosses a wrench in the gears when you stop and think about stone heads and how they are made.
Flaked obsidian edges evidently can be sharper than the finest edged steel. I have read that some surgical instruments are made (or at least were made; I don't know if they still are) from obsidian for this reason.
Yep, remember it well. I was in the micro-serrated edge camp as were most of my buddies.
I doubt if it makes a practical difference.
QuoteOriginally posted by McDave:
QuoteOriginally posted by PEARL DRUMS:
Stone heads have killed more meat than steel ever will. That really tosses a wrench in the gears when you stop and think about stone heads and how they are made.
Flaked obsidian edges evidently can be sharper than the finest edged steel. I have read that some surgical instruments are made (or at least were made; I don't know if they still are) from obsidian for this reason. [/b]
You got that right. Some surgical procedures are done with obsidian. But, my main point being that they are serrated, all stone heads are. So, if a steel blade is file sharp and left alone, it will kill all kinds of meat. That being said, I think we find peace of mind in hair popping sharp heads. Nothing wrong with confidence when carrying a stick and string.
If you go micro enough all blades are serrated.
There are arguments both ways. I believe a sharp head going thru the chest of a critter will kill it quickly and even the sharpest of heads going thru where it is not supposed to will be a crap shoot as to whether it will cut some arteries or not.
Remember too, surgeries done with obsidian are / were done with flakes, single bevel, not retouched, not with something made into a broadhead.
ChuckC
I like a burr. Clean slices clot easier, jagged one's don't. But they both kill.
QuoteOriginally posted by kevsuperg:
I like a burr. Clean slices clot easier, jagged one's don't. But they both kill.
It's actually the opposite of that. The sharper the instrument the more it will bleed and the longer it will take for the blood to coagulate.
QuoteOriginally posted by kevsuperg:
I like a burr. Clean slices clot easier, jagged one's don't. But they both kill.
Actually,the opposite is true.Jagged induces clotting.
http://www.tuffhead.com/education/clotting%20cascade.html
Stone heads,are really different....serrated by production...but smoothed by production also.
Notches cut (serrations) flake off to infinity (smooth)....so you get BOTH.
Serrated and burr are two different things.
I've always used honed....but wouldn't hesitate to use filed edge if all I had....
I'd rather sharpen my shooting skills than debate this sharpening issue ;)
Hey Pearl Drums, maybe in a few thousands years us modern Bowhunters will eventually catch up to the stone age people, unless the antis win their agenda!
Heck I can't even hit the darn deer so I don't worry about it much... :laughing:
This debate will live as long as bowhunting does, because both types of edge work very well. Therefore, the essential factor to consider is personal preference.
This is a never ending argument that all will never agree on. I am in the razor sharp camp, and have had pretty darn good luck with it over the years. The most important thing is putting that broadhead, no matter which way it is sharpened, in the right place!
Bisch
Oops, double post!
Bisch
Seems like whenever there is an old debate that is still going on, it will continue going on....... and on...
QuoteOriginally posted by JimB:
QuoteOriginally posted by kevsuperg:
I like a burr. Clean slices clot easier, jagged one's don't. But they both kill.
Actually,the opposite is true.Jagged induces clotting.
http://www.tuffhead.com/education/clotting%20cascade.html [/b]
correct, my brain is scrambled and I should have said file edge not a burr also.
Both ways work . Do what you prefer .
Heck a well placed field point will kill a deer.
well after thinking about this I decided to strop a few zwickey deltas I had considered sharp from the file. as I said before I have always thought the file edge was sharp enough.
wow what a difference, it took a little effort but man does that produce a sharp edge.
I agree that just about any projectile placed in the right spot will kill, a sharp blade should cut and penetrate easier.
I am excited to get out tomorrow and hopefully put them to the test.
Strop On!!
Yeah, I remember debating that back in the '70's. (we still are! Look on 8-27-16 for a post titled "honed edge?") I also remember the discussion about was it better for the arrow to pass thru or stay in the animal? Heck, I also remember that on the back of the blister pack that Bear Razorheads came in, it said to never shoot a big game animal with just a 2 blade head!
Where can a feller pick up a good file for broadhead sharpening and what are the best ones to use ? I think i really like the serrated idea the more i read about it....
a 6" or 8" mill bastard file from any hardware store will do the trick.
I use two blade deltas and sharpen them on true angle files I bought from three rivers. they work great
If you think about it, when you cut yourself with a razor blade it bleeds like a mother but heals quickly, cut yourself with a saw blade and it gets infected, heals horribly slow and leaves a nasty scar.
What does that have to do with bowhunting? Nothing, and neither does the theory.
Hole in, hole out and blood loss is all that matters, the faster the blood loss,the faster the deer's brain is deprived of oxygen, lights out.
I prefer shaving sharp personally. Ashby studies examined this very issue and came to the conclusion across ALL heads tested that shaving sharp delivered better penetration than filed sharp AND reduced the production of thromboplastin which is the clotting protein in blood. Essentially, a shaving sharp head will cut more tissue and produce more prolific bleeding...why wouldn't a bow-hunter strive to achieve these two things?
That being said, a filed sharp head to the boiler room has also been proven to be deadly. So, while I don't consider a filed sharp head ideal, in the real world it's good enough.
QuoteOriginally posted by yeager:
Hey Pearl Drums, maybe in a few thousands years us modern Bowhunters will eventually catch up to the stone age people, unless the antis win their agenda!
At least a few thousand years :) Its crazy to think game was dying from bows and stone 10,000 years ago! And they all did it every day just survive. UnGodly amounts of meat were made that way. Just crazy to think. I don't think our 6-8 week casual hunting butts will ever catch up!
As mentioned this debate will be done in a circle and I would suspect that it is just a matter of a personal preference. Me I like a jagged cut ripping thru meat causing all kinds of mayhem inside the deer.
From my LIMITED medical experience, our own Tarz nailed it...
KNapped edges are grosely serrated, true, but each serration is smooth as ...well, GLASS!
IF the medical community prefers a honed edge for surgery, I go with that...
A Ragged tear in an artery, as some noted, picks up the platelets and clots faster. I don't want archery shot deer wounds to clot fast, I want them to bleed hard!!!
One of the reasons I heard was that a 2 blade smooth cut seals up too quickly... sure, until the critter moves a bit...
We, as hunters, will always rely on our own logic to make choices... and as such, "to each his own".
I used a file sharpened, micro serrated edge for years. It did work, but I never got great penetration or BT. Part of that was the energy of my bows. I read Ashby's information, and decided to test for myself. The results have been pass thru, and shorter recovery. The BT really surprised me how improved it was. I was also shooting thru. Just from my comparison experience I have changed to a honed razorsharp BH now. I saw a difference.
Best BT I have ever had on an animal, bar none! Razor sharp honed BH that was scary. It just was impressive to me and changed my viewpoint. This is exit side...watched him go down, 45 yrds at most.
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n559/jeffbschulz/Mobile%20Uploads/de1f0c87-07eb-4e6c-9bf7-8530661ad8b3_zpsd3a8c1cf.jpg) (http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/jeffbschulz/media/Mobile%20Uploads/de1f0c87-07eb-4e6c-9bf7-8530661ad8b3_zpsd3a8c1cf.jpg.html)
QuoteThe most important thing is putting that broadhead, no matter which way it is sharpened, in the right place!
:thumbsup:
I don't trust burrs, sometimes with some heads they may stay and be effective and with other heads they may break off and leave nothing. I have seen people think that they had this scary sharp thing, when all it was, a shorter smooth burr. Then when they hit a deer , were surprised to find how dull the head came out. If you get a head shaving sharp and then serrate it is a different deal. I am guessing that with softer metal and perhaps long and narrow heads like Hunter's Head or Hills that they may be more effective with the serration. Sharpening a Hill like Tom Mussato did versus just making them rough will get a different result. On one deer last year, a single bevel well worn Hill went through a rib cross ways on entry across the back of the heart and cut through a rib on exit, with the arrow shattering on a small oak, the serrated edge will still easily cut a trough in my finger nail, it did not jam up with tallow or hair. The buck went down in 62 yards with plenty of blood spray at the initial hit and buckets of blood the last 20 yards. I can make most broad heads easily shave hair with a file, a diamond hone and my leather belt, but Like the serration that I get from the original Grizzly file, it is keen artery grabbing nasty, and it can easily cut me if I handle it stupid.
A file sharpened broadhead will open a hole and leave a blood trail that would put out a fire. Sharp is sharp don't sweat the small stuff.
Aways cracks me up when someone ask a question and someone answers a different one. A guy asked a question about different types of egdes and he gets answers about shop placement. We all know shot placement is a very big factor, that's a given, however that's not the topic he was asking about.
:banghead:
Been debating this subject since the sixties at least. Finally a conclusion I can accept. Thanks guys.
Try this. Take a big roast and two knives. File sharpen one and hone to razor sharp the other. Which one cuts the best?
So if I File sharpen my BH's and can shave the hair off of my arm I should be covered, right? :bigsmyl:
LD
Yes, but if you hone it, you can shave the hair off your legs too.
I like a 12" file.. I've not used a 14" but it may be better yet.
The width of the 12" file allows the user to maintain the angle he is striving for.. The 6 and 8" files are much narrower and small angle deviations go unnoticed. So, for me, the wider 12" allows me to get the angles I want much easier.
I have used both file sharpened and razor sharp edges, (I can get a file sharpened head to shave hair).. Both, done correctly, will work well..
It is hard for some folks to use very machine like straight strokes with a file. You wouldn't want to lug a 12" file in the woods, but for the original Grizzlies, 12" file were the best thing for getting that bevel angle set. For years, with them I followed the directions on the pack with the addition of starting out by flattening the flat side, file the bevel to set angle and build the bur, then with the file flat on the back give it a gentle push flat and forward. The family killed many deer doing that. This thread reminded me of an incident that happened years ago. Tom Mussato used a few more steps with his Hill broadheads than the brochure that Craig put out. At a shooting lanes/archery shop I demonstrated the difference by sharpening a 140 Hill TM style. One recurve shooter that believed those mush tipped Savoras was the only way to go, went on a tirade over it. He held the arrow in his hand and with one continuous motion described how the angle was wrong and how hair and fat would plug it. He said, "See it won't even cut my thumb." Doing that one sweep, to the bone and clear across his thumb. Any archer would have been proud of the blood trail he left as the guys helped him to the back of a pickup to rush him to the hospital.