Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: txcookie on August 27, 2016, 01:19:00 PM
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I have always used a lansky on 2 blade heads and with great success. I recently got a work sharp which uses belts and does a good job. It has a buffing belt. And last night I used it. New to me but the blade felt dull. It doesn't catch skin when u run your finger over it at all. I run it over my leg and dang. May as well have been a 5 bladed razor from gillette as it smooth bumped hair . I'm confused
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It's a lot like comparing a serrated knife blade to a straight edge. The high points of the serrations will catch on your skin, while the smooth edge will cut you without catching. The smoothest edge produced with a diamond stone will still have jagged little serrations when viewed under high magnification. That same edge when stropped, will have the sharp projections rounded off some. Both will cut - it just feels different while it's cutting. A polished edge done on an 8000 grit Japanese water stone will cut you and leave you standing there saying "OMG. How did that happen", while an edge a little rougher will hurt as it cuts.
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What's the better edge in your opinion ?
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Depends on what you're using it for and who you ask. Saxton Pope preferred the micro serrations from a file sharpened blade. He claimed it didn't dull as quickly as a honed edge and would therefore penetrate better. Most people nowadays seem to prefer a "hair popping" edge. Not sure if it's based on actual experience of what penetrates better, or if it just makes more sense in people's heads that shaving sharp is sharper than file sharp and must penetrate better. I personally hone the edge on all my heads on a similar setup to what you have.
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Using a lansky I can get a wicked edge as well but you can feel it.
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Same experience here. If I strop the edge on a smooth leather strop, it doesn't feel as sharp, but cuts like crazy. I like to test the edge on an overly ripe tomato. If it will slice that soft, squishy tomato thinly, it will shave, or perform any other cutting test I put it to. Besides, I've run out of hair on my arms :)
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Lots of discussion on this topic. (Use the search engine here.) The good news is that both work! Lots of people want a smooth, polished, honed edge. Dr. Ashby gave lots of medical reasons why a polished edge is better. History shows us a filed edge works great. It all boils down to what YOU like the best. I have settled on a filed edge. My reasons are:
It is quicker. You can sharpen a broadhead in the field if you need to. A file is all you need. It works and works great. Most broadheads don't have hard enough metal to hold a honed edge like a knife. A filed edge works. Go to a slaughter house and see what edge they use. When I asked them why not a honed edge, a fellow said that a honed edge is too delicate. It can roll over on you if you hit bone. A filed edge works. A fellow that sells a sharpening tool and post here said in a post one time that a filed edge actually cuts MORE than a honed edge. A properly filed sharpened broadhead (given a good quality one) WILL cut hair on your arm. You DON'T want to try because it is so "grabby" that when you cut the hair, you have probably cut your arm. Lots of folks don't know how to sharpen a broadhead with a file or stones or anything else! Like I said, I like a filed edge. It works.
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In the films of Fred Bear and company, most of them, at the beginning, show Fred file sharpening his broadheads. Some advertising in that prolly, but a stone or strop is never to be seen.
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I've often wondered about this same thing. I have used them both ways, but like the way a honed edge peels the hair off my arm and its done very well for me on deer.
I need to take a look at ashby's research to see why he thinks its a better option.
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I've been using "paper wheels" for a couple years now for 2 blade heads and it is amazingly easy and literally pops hair with a touch. I've found each way to sharpen heads has a learning curve. Of all the deer I've killed, the sharper honed edge make em bleed reduliculously profusely. Filed edges never did that for me. Still killed em but not nearly the blood.
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Look at the edge under a microscope. Lots of examples on the knife threads. IMHO, a filed edge basically is a tiny scaled saw blade, a properly honed edge slices. Which do you think will penetrate with less effort? A head I switched to this year came with a very sharp edge, but it was obviously put on with a grinder and had burrs and gaps easily visibly to the naked eye. Those gaps will grab hair, tallow, bone, etc. Rough is rough.
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For me personally, if it will cut hair off my arm it is more than sharp enough for hunting. I have no concerns about whether that final cutting edge is smoothly polished and surgically perfect or filed to a ragged toothy finish. If it cuts hair on a slow drag down my arm then it will cut anything except bone while flying through a body cavity at speed. Please just make mine sharp.
I just started using a Work Sharp this year. I bought the Blade Grinding Attachment and it allows me to free-hand grind/hone broadheads. Nothing faster and easier from start to finish.
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I've read the differing arguments for each edge type some years ago and have come to the conclusion that each can be had. I sharpen and hone my broadheads to a shiny razor-like edge and then lightly touch them up with a file. This technique yields razor sharp micro serrations. Although this has worked on several deer (very effectively), I can't say that a standard file or stone sharpened edge wouldn't have done the trick just as well.
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The paper wheels make it so easy, and there's no dragging to pop hair. I can barely push the head into my arm hair and it is immediately shaved. Almost as if the weight of the head alone is enough. I can't say enough how this has improved my blood trails. I've actually started to take a few pics because nobody would believe the description of what a 2 blade head can do. I tracked my share of file sharpened deer hits and it's not even a comparison to what I get with a honed and stropped edge. The last two I killed were as if one had a blood sprinkler attached and the other like I walked along dumping a gallon of red paint. Not an exaggeration.
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The problem with a honed edge is that most people don't know how to do it properly. They get it halfway sharp and when it stops cutting good they're upset that the edge hasn't held up. Nothing works right if it isn't done correctly.
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I believe stropping will always yield a better blood trail than just a rough file edge. Not only better blood trail but also faster death to the animal. Also a more durable edge. Ashby Video on edge sharpness (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnwGuz58Q-M)
and
Ashby Broadhead Finish Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFLt8mYBycA)
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I forgot to mention that when stropping, even on a single bevel, I think you must strop both sides. You also have to make sure the angle is contacting the edge and not just polishing the "face". You can hear and feel it drag more when its stropping good. In my experience its harder to overdo the strop and stropping angle, then to under-do and not get it evenly stropped on the edge(meaning some spots will be sharp while others have a bur). I strop quickly alternating sides every stroke. or use a jet polishing wheel.
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Just how dead does a game animal need to be...you are sweating the details for no reason
DDave
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Trust me I dont have the issue of having to sharpen in the field due to kills and what not! If I put my three BHds in the dirt with no meat I am going home mad and will sharpen there!!!
Seriously though due to being out and away, maybe on kayak or just away from the truck (eastern NC) I have a sharpening kit that goes in my bag. 6" good file, a small diamond block (DMT I think?) and a piece of buffalo leather that is engrained with polish from years of use. it is small and light and I have used it since I was a kid.
My Dad had me sharpening knives, axes, machetes from the time I could walk. I can sharpen most anything with my eyes closed. but just the ease of my little kit works anywhere I go.
I dont know if the edge is "honed" "polished" "serrated" or whatever name you want to put to it; I do guarantee when I get done with the file, just a couple licks on that hone, and then I strop a few stroke on that leather if you slip with it you wont know your cut til you feel the blood running. Really I can sharpen most my knives at the end of the day with just the leather?
DD said it above, just how dead you want em?
J
Edit: my good knives dont get on the file just the block - lol unless I really have to straighten the edge out.
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Just barely dead is enough for me....but if the deer happens to expire on the bank just before trying to cross a swift flowing river and leaves enough of a trail that facilitates my recovery of it, then "sweating the details" has been worth it.
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I've sharpened heads different ways for trad since 91. I think it's worth it or I wouldn't care. File, hone, strop...that's a honed edge btw.
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File works for me and this guy:
(http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/two4hooking/Trad%20Know%20How/20140430_210420_zps26b4952c.jpg) (http://s481.photobucket.com/user/two4hooking/media/Trad%20Know%20How/20140430_210420_zps26b4952c.jpg.html)
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No matter how he does it, I'd rather a guy be obsessive about his sharpening methods....details matter.
The whole filed-vs-honed discussion will be ongoing until (and if) someone is able to unequivocally prove an advantage either way. Are there any trad scientists lurking?
;)
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Would someone clue me in as to why steak knives are serrated.
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Steak knives are serrated so that people who can't sharpen a knife an still cut steak. Very good point. I would use a scalpel on a steak wouldn't want a steak knife for a surgery either. I guess bot would work.
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Serrated knives work so well because the points (of the serrations) focus the cutting pressure, plus the tips of the points serve to protect much of the overall cutting edges. I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn, but was taught this by a very good blade crafter.
One of my favorite knives is a Cutco drop point with a Double D serrated edge. Trust me...or don't...but it far out-performs a standard straight edge when taking apart a big, big animal. Those serrations power through tendons and ligaments with half the effort of a straight blade.
None of this matters to the discussion of a honed vs filed broadhead though...
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Kevin, I agree. Sawing on a porcelain plate while cutting steak, meal after meal, will totally dull the points of the serrations, but the cutting edge of the scallops will still cut the steak. The arrow only has to pass through a deer once before it gets re-sharpened. Either will work well one time if it is razor sharp, and that's all that's necessary. I think it all comes down to what do you have the most confidence in.
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Originally posted by Bladepeek:
I think it all comes down to what do you have the most confidence in.
I am exactly of the same mind.
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Originally posted by highlow:
Would someone clue me in as to why steak knives are serrated.
Why are a butchers knives not serrated?
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Originally posted by Butch Speer:
Originally posted by highlow:
Would someone clue me in as to why steak knives are serrated.
Why are a butchers knives not serrated? [/b]
Because butchers like their fingers.
;)
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Serrated knive have the sharp portion between the high points. Steak knives are used on plates and the points keep the steak knives from getting dulled on the porcelain plate. It's not because they cut better than non serrated blades.
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Thanks for the responses to my question. I shot a moose in Newfoundland about four years ago. It was with a 55# compound though. The reason I mention it is because I shot it with an FMG with only a 100gr Magnus Stinger Buzz Cut. My guide was watching the action from a 90 degree angle from the shot, basically looking at the moose's arse. That arrow went through so quickly, he thought I had missed. I really wish Magnus made a heavier Buzz Cut, say in the 175-200 range.
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I personally don't see a performance advantage in serrated broadheads. They will kill perfectly fine of course, but not with better overall results than a straight edge. Generally they are difficult or impossible to sharpen, making them a one-shot broadhead.