A bow shop had a couple of Howard Hill longbows for sale with no tip overlays. I inquired as to whether they would take modern string materials. The guy called Howard Hill Bows and was told that they would take modern string materials even if there were no tip overlays.
I don't think I would feel comfortable putting modern string materials on a bow that is not meant for them. Is there anything special about the way Howard Hill's are built that would allow for that? I have never had one, but I would like the option of trying both kinds of string without worrying about damaging the bow. What do you guys think? Maybe I should just keep looking for one with the tip overlays.
If it has wedges, it's also FF compatible
If you pad the loops with B-50 0r B-55 you can put any string material you want on any bow out there......even self bows.
Agree with JR and ron. I use padded loop D-97 on my Hill. Gives it quite a bit of extra zip and reduces hand shock.
I've never seen a controlled study that proves anything one way or the other. I have a few bows that aren't compatible with high performance materials, and I like the bows, so they get B-55.
There's lots of variables to consider: Bow construction, string construction, arrow weight, draw weight, draw length, etc. All can make a difference.
Chad
Padded loops are the secret. BUT you will get different opinions about the pros and cons of FF on HH bows. There is a post on Tradational Archery Society right now with different pros and cons. I used FF on my HH style bow. It had the wedges mentioned above. I agree it made the bow a little faster but not so sure about hand thump.
I have a BCY-X on my wedge-tip Hill. Quietest bow I've ever owned. If you're having a string made by a string maker, mention that it has wedge tips, and he will make the loops smaller than he would for a bow with overlays.
Yes, yes and yes!
But it isn't just the string!
The tiller has to be right!
A heavier physical weight arrow is part of the equation.
Finding comfort and performance, is key!
I would think that the Hill style being approximately 1/2" deep cored instead of a thin recurve tip probably helps as well. But I have been wrong on plenty of occasions.
I'm the guy that started the thread over on the TAS website that M60gunner mentioned. Back in March this year when I first got my Wesley Special, I took off the B50 string it came with and replaced it with a 8 strand 450+ string padded to 12 in the loops. It shot well, but the bow was not a quiet as I thought it should be and to me it just felt like that string was too harsh on the bow. No scientific data to back that up, just felt that way to me. Here is a link to a youtube vid I did shooting it with that 450+ string. Arrow was 535 grains. Pay attention to how the string wobbles after the shot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHYvQffM3RQ
I decided to put the B50 string she came with back on and try that. To me, I perceived a big difference. The bow seemed quieter and more well behaved on the shot. With a 535 grain arrow, still seemed pretty quick to me. I emailed the bowyer, Craig Ekin, to ask him about the string that came with the bow. He said that if the customer does not specify otherwise, he send every bow out of his shop with B50. That was good enough for me. Here is a link to a youtube vid of me shooting that same bow with a 535 grain arrow with a 12 strand B50 string. As before, watch the string after the shot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hcP_bR0SIs
Only you can decide what is best for you. Perhaps get a Fast Flight string and try it. Many variables and it might work out for you. But for me on this bow, I'm sticking with Dacron B50 or B55. Also, don't worry too much about stretch. If the Dacron string is built right, it should not stretch on you much. I build the 12 strand B50 you see in the video and when I first string it, it braces at 6 & 1/4" and after shooting a couple arrows it comes down perfectly to 6 & 1/8 and does not move after that. I make the splices 7.5" long. Best of luck to you!
Steve
Agree with everything stated. You may be surprised to find that one of those shoots just right with a B 50 16 strand string. Before making that decision, I would suggest watching the Howard Hill and John Schulz You Tubes.
Some say I'm nuts, but I don't pad the loops.....I do the whole string. 5 strands of D-97 in both bundles and then I add 3 strands of B-50 to each.....so there are 6 strands of B-50 just along for the ride. :dunno: I like how it feels, how it sounds and my nocks fit nice! So far it seems to be working just fine. Mike Treadway told me about this.
That sounds like a good combo Ron. IMHO, This is what is great about traditional archery, just regular folks tinkering and trying things and finding what works best for us. And everyone is so willing to share. I think it's great!
By the way, that thread over on TAS has some great information in it about the tone of the string on the shot and the fact that the low hum of the dacron string might be an advantage in that Deer have a harder time picking up lower tones. Interesting stuff.
Steve
Ron, I think Mike Treadway does something similar.
When a Hill style bow shoots right with a B50 three bundle string, it does a lot of other things right as well.
If the builder says it is OK. Then it is OK. You need to decide which string material you want.
Yep--what Bulldog18 said.
As far as pro's and con's...
HMPE and HMPE blends are much stronger and more durable, with less stretch and creep, and aren't as susceptible to changes with the temps (especially the blends).
My favorite material is BCY-X, on any bow.
I've gone to BCY-X on all my bows. :archer:
Had a Half Breed without overlays that I shot with a padded loop FF string. Liked it better than the dacron string. It had wedges in the tips so I was not concerned about it.
Agree with Pavan!
So wanted to update this thread. I received my second Hill Bow this past Saturday - A Howard Hill Legend Stick. It's awesome. A bit heavier than my Wesley Special and it has double tip wedges for extra strength in the tips. It came with a 16 strand B50 string. But with those beefy tips, I thought I would try 450+ just to see how it would do. So I made a 10 strand 450+ string padded to 14 in the loops. The 14 strands in the loops made a nice thick loop and it fills the string nocks on the tips nicely. And guess what? That Legend Stick shoots amazing with the 450+ string! Maybe is beefier tips? Maybe it's something else? All I know is the Legend Stick handled the Fast Flight string without same feeling I got when I tried 450+ on the Wesley Special. I did add a couple of Limbsaver string leaches just to lower the higher pitched tone of the Fast Flight but I am sticking with Fast Flight on this Legend Stick and the performance is amazing.
Moral of the story, don't be afraid to tinker and find what works best on your Hill Bow. You might be surprised at what works.
Steve
For me its B50 only.
Where can I get one of these "PADDED LOOP" Flemish twist FF strings for my Hill style? Can you all link some names or makers?
I just got my replacement Dave Johnson longbow, which is a Hill style, and I asked him if a FF string would be OK to use and he specifically told me that it would be fine but recommended I pad the loops on it if I did use one.
He said that he ships all his bows with the strings he makes which are the standard B50.
I'd like to get a better string for my bow.
Larry
Hi Larry. Allen Shafer, of Ten Ring Strings, can make you a wonderful string for your Hill Bow. Check out his website at tenringstrings.com and contact him about your needs. He makes great strings for Hill Style Bows.
Padding the loops of the string just means the string builder adds more strands of material to where they are twisting the loops at. For example, on the string that I made for my Legend Stick, I used 10 strands for the main part of the string. But then to pad the loops, I cut 4 additional 11" sections of 450+ (2 of each color) and then lay those into the each bundle right where I am twisting the loops. That makes the strand count of the loops 14. This makes the diameter of the twisted bundles in the loops thicker and fills the string nocks on the tips of the bow more fully. The thicker loop distributes the pressure more evenly in the string nock making it less likely to dig in the tip - potentially causing it to delaminate.
Steve
B50 is an inferior string somehow?
Actually, amongst "modern" string materials, B-50 ranks at the bottom. Kinda' like a Model T, it was the stuff during it's time. Now it's more of a novelty.
Reason being is there are better materials available now. B-50 has the most stretch, most creep, least durability, least consistency of any manufactured string material on the market.
Even if you have to shoot polyester strings because you are shooting a self bow or an old bow that wasn't built for HMPE/HMPE blends, there's B-55. Not a huge improvement, but it is made with a higher grade of polyester for a little less stretch/creep and a little better durability.
No knocking anyone that likes it, just answering the question with verifiable facts. If you prefer B-50 for whatever reason, use it.
Depends what factors you are ranking....
Quiet is up on top of my list and B50 gets the nod.
Forgiving...yes. Gentle on the bow and shooter.
Feel and larger diameter (yes I like a fat string)
Inferior is just an opinion.
Feel free to send me all the spools of "inferior" novelty B50 you guys don't want.
I can get my bows extremely quiet with BCY-X, Dynaflight '97, etc. It's more a matter of tuning than string material.
If it were more "forgiving" on the shot, top target archers would be using B-50. Brady Ellison is shooting BCY's 8125. Pretty sure no top ranked archer is shooting polyester (Dacron). If they are, they are the exception.
The size of the string depends on the number of strands used. I don't like "skinny" strings either.
In the areas I mentioned - strength, durability, lack of stretch, lack of creep, consistency - B-50 is at the bottom of the list in all categories. Not opinion but verifiable fact. :readit:
You did ask... :knothead:
you couldnt pay me to shoot a bow with B50. only thing B50 is acceptable to me on are vintage bows, otherwise it's like shooting yourself in the foot. strong opinion eh? lol
I think I've bought a couple strings from 10 Ring.
I'll get hold of him and see what he can do for me.
Thanks
quote:
Originally posted by LBR:
I can get my bows extremely quiet with BCY-X, Dynaflight '97, etc. It's more a matter of tuning than string material.
If it were more "forgiving" on the shot, top target archers would be using B-50. Brady Ellison is shooting BCY's 8125. Pretty sure no top ranked archer is shooting polyester (Dacron). If they are, they are the exception.
The size of the string depends on the number of strands used. I don't like "skinny" strings either.
In the areas I mentioned - strength, durability, lack of stretch, lack of creep, consistency - B-50 is at the bottom of the list in all categories. Not opinion but verifiable fact. :readit:
You did ask... :readit:
My bow is also considered "inferior" by some standards, yet for the endeavor I use it for it is vastly superior to me. :goldtooth:
I have tried all different string materials from B-50 to 8 strand skinny things. There is nothing more silent that B-50. The high tech stuff just has a different pitch to it. They do what they say as far as no stretch and no creep.......if you want silent at the shot......it's B-50 for me.
Varies with the bow, tuning, nock fit, your release, etc. I've had lots of customers tell me their bows were quieter with Dynaflight '97, 8125, 450+, BCY-X, etc. vs. polyester (Dacron).
Your mileage may vary. Critters I've killed couldn't be reached for comment. :bigsmyl:
I have a clean release, been doing this for 40+ years and can tune a bow, I have used all the materials you mentioned........Dacron is lower pitch and more silent. I will admit right now I'm using D-97 or 452 with a few strands of B-50 thrown in the mix just to make my nocks fit nice. :dunno:
Not arguing what works for you Ron.
It's not universal though. Been studying strings and string materials on all sorts of bows and gathering info from all sorts of people from beginning shooters to professionals to bowyers to the world's top bowstring manufacturer for 20+ years.
The one thing that is for certain is there is no one right answer that fits everyone and/or every bow.
There's also the variable of how the string is made. Not just strand count either.
:notworthy:
Let's not lose the point of this thread. The original poster specifically asked about using Fast Flight on a Howard Hill Bow. In the interest of being as much help as I could, I related my experience with my HH Wesley Special. For me, on that particular bow, a 12 strand B50 string worked better. Now I define better as the bow shot the way I wanted it to with the B50. Not so much with 450+. Could I have tried other FF materials? Yeah, but once I find something that works, I stop and use it.
Now I just received another Hill Bow - A Legend Stick (which is awesome by the way) that has double tip wedges. So I thought I would try 450+ since I have the material and I make my own strings. It shot lovely with the 450+. So guess what? I stopped and am using 450+ on my Legend Stick.
The Original Poster is going to have to figure out what works best for him on HIS bow. That's the fun part. All we can do to help is relate our experiences to give him some thoughts on what to try.
Best of Luck Pack! I hope you enjoy your Hill Bow journey - I know I am enjoying mine.
Steve
Your right meatCKR........got caught up. My Hills have seen FF and Dacron......both with good results. Try them both to see what works best for you.