Several years ago I was invited to hunt a co-workers farm .
We both had gone back to his wooded area in the early morning .
We came back to the far house about 11:00am and as I steped past the corner of the barn , there was a doe with a fawn standing about 15 yards away .
I stopped grabbed an arrow and just stood there , the other guy said " go ahead " .
I hesitated because it was not my property and it was so near the house .
So I put an arrow right in the boiler room and she ran about 30 yards and folded up .
Now for the part of the story that kinda made me feel bad ....
I rolled her over on her back and started to split the belly open and her fawn walked up to me and was looking over my right shoulder . :confused:
I literally pushed it away with my elbow .
It then stood there and just watched . :(
I'm so glad that wasn't my first deer harvest , I'm not sure if I could have ever deer hunted again .
That's the only time I have had that happen .
There was one other time I had a fawn run after its mama but it took off when I started over to it .
If it didn't have spots it wasn't a "fawn" I call it a yearling. I'd have felt the same though, we as predators do feel the need for mercy sometimes.
Ugh....
The first deer I ever shot with archery gear (wrong kind) orphaned triplets.
I watched those same three triplets about three different times the rest of that fall/winter, and they all seemed to be doing just fine.
I understand your dilemma though.
I'm going to add , the guy I was hunting with was a compound shooter and he was amazed that I could kill a deer with a 50# recurve , let alone that quickly .
There is what the law tells us, and there is what our internal control mechanism tells us.
Yeah that would be kinda sad. I've shot grown does before and had the fawn stick around, but never that close. And by fawn I don't mean a spotted fawn but rather what lots of folks refer to as a yearling. Here in Texas it's extremely rare to see a spotted fawn after bow season opens. Honestly they will more than likely be fine on their own, but I can see how that would be tough!!
I am not bashing you , but that's why I don't and won't shoot any doe with yearlings. I will never be that hungry. But that's just me.
Just shoot the yearling right?... reverse this instance, then pay attention to how much ma doe cares about that yearling....its all about self preservation to her, and no warm fuzzy feelings.
wow , tough story
I may have been done at that point.
Couple three years ago I shot a deer in gun season with my 44 pistol.
Hit it bad and it took a while to expire.
I felt its pain.
I guess Im getting softer in my old age (in more ways than one)
What never bothered me before , does now.
Almost any doe in the fall will have or had a yearling from the spring some where with it...you just may not see it. They are already weaned.
QuoteOriginally posted by Shadowhnter:
Just shoot the yearling right?... reverse this instance, then pay attention to how much ma doe cares about that yearling....its all about self preservation to her, and no warm fuzzy feelings.
Very true!!
QuoteOriginally posted by tippit:
Almost any doe in the fall will have or had a yearling from the spring some where with it...you just may not see it. They are already weaned.
This is true too. I hear a lot of folks talk about "barren" does when they see a doe alone. I'm sure there are a few out there. But it's far more likely her fawn is already weaned, been shot, ran over by a car, killed by predators, etc..Also a lot of times during the rut you will see fawns by themselves because a buck will have the mom locked down somewhere else.
I've talked to many a european hunter and at least in Germany, they are required to harvest the young animal rather than the adult doe. It is done to maintain population levels in small areas and to leave the proven animal alive and take out the one most likely to die from whatever cause during the winter.
QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Arnette:
If it didn't have spots it wasn't a "fawn" I call it a yearling. I'd have felt the same though, we as predators do feel the need for mercy sometimes.
Actually, Graps is correct, it is a fawn. They aren't yearlings until they are a year old next spring.
I've orphaned a few fawns and choose not to do it anymore. They are weened and won't starve, but without the mature doe, who will teach them to survive winter, predators and the boogy man hiding in the trees. The yearling doe, now 1 1/2 years old and often without a fawn is definitely on my shooter list.
One year on a nice late October day, I was about 50 yards from my van, heading home for lunch. A doe came over the hill with in feet of me. She stopped making all kinds of noise, she went right past me back down the slope towards the road. Coming up the road was a woman with two dogs. In the ditch were her fawns. I was impressed that she was so bonded to those little ones that she would repeatedly take such a risk. I had lots of doe tags from the farmer, but I could no longer shoot adult does with fawns. I took a couple of year and a half does that I was certain had no fawns. Later that same year, just before Christmas, in the dark on the way home, it was extremely cold and windy, a doe and a tiny little fawn with spots crossed in front of me while I was at a stop sign. They both looked like they were in trouble, I felt terrible for them. I am guessing that doe was bred extremely late, I have never seen such a young one that late before. I have not shot a doe since unless I was sure that she had no fawns. Late in the season a doe with button bucks is not very attached to them, but I will not shoot any doe that could possibly have a fawn in early season, until I am positive that she is dry with no fawns.
I had an experience very similar happen to me some years back. The fawns never got that close, but watched me walk all the way to the dead doe. They hung around for awhile like they didn't know what to do and finally left. I felt bad, and still do when I think about it. I've shot does since then, but never one with fawns.
Cool story, certainly not one I'll go share with the wife. I've weaned one before and got over it quick enough. Truth is I've probably done it more than I know as I jump younguns by themselves many times while Mom's out cruisin.
QuoteOriginally posted by Fletcher:
QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Arnette:
If it didn't have spots it wasn't a "fawn" I call it a yearling. I'd have felt the same though, we as predators do feel the need for mercy sometimes.
Actually, Graps is correct, it is a fawn. They aren't yearlings until they are a year old next spring.
I've orphaned a few fawns and choose not to do it anymore. They are weened and won't starve, but without the mature doe, who will teach them to survive winter, predators and the boogy man hiding in the trees. The yearling doe, now 1 1/2 years old and often without a fawn is definitely on my shooter list. [/b]
lol i dont think we want them to know about the boogy man in the trees :D
"Actually, Graps is correct, it is a fawn. They aren't yearlings until they are a year old next spring."
Correct!
Fawns are less than one year old. Yearlings are between one and two years old.
I think we as humans go to far in thinking the wildlife need us to survive. Nature has a way of taking care of her own, they have done it for centuries. I don't think wolves, coyotes or any other predator stops to think whether or not they are leaving an orphan.
If it was a situation where I had to feed my family to survive I may have done it just to eat But not in today's world where I don't have to. It sounds like it left a lasting impression on your heart and soul and maybe next time you will give it more thought and let her walk away with her young .We learn from our mistakes and I made many in my life as well. I myself would of let her walk which I do a lot of times while hunting cause I don't need a photo album or a witness that may be there to prove it can be done with the bow I choose.Be real to yourself and not try to impress someone else knowing inside you can make that shot. Walking away and letting life go on to me makes a Tradbowhunter and a woodsman not how many trad kills one can take in their lifetime.
QuoteOriginally posted by danbow:
I think we as humans go to far in thinking the wildlife need us to survive. Nature has a way of taking care of her own, they have done it for centuries. I don't think wolves, coyotes or any other predator stops to think whether or not they are leaving an orphan.
Nature would not need humans to survive, if the human population was anywhere reasonable. We have modified nature to suit our numbers, and so are required to manage it. We no longer live in a "wild" world.
My second daughter asked me how "she should feel" when she kills her first deer.
I told her,"you should feel whatever you actually feel at that moment, not whatever someone says you should".
"What if I feel bad?"she asked.
"The day I don't feel a tinge of remorse is the day I should stop hunting" was my truthful answer.
Our "mercy" is the hours, days, years of practice, tuning and preparation. Experiences like this happen and guide us to our own individual ethics.
There is no right or wrong here.
Wise advice I got from a friend.
Don't do anything during the day that will keep you awake at night.
Dave
Everyone must choose to follow their own heart and morals. For me early season , when the fawns still have spots I will pass on does. Once the winter coats come in and the whole group is the classic grey I will take a doe. By then the fawns are weaned, and the does are starting to travel in larger groups sometimes (tend to be the oldest does daughters)I have no issue with taking a doe. The fawns have already learned the area and the trails they use.
QuoteOriginally posted by Doug_K:
QuoteOriginally posted by danbow:
I think we as humans go to far in thinking the wildlife need us to survive. Nature has a way of taking care of her own, they have done it for centuries. I don't think wolves, coyotes or any other predator stops to think whether or not they are leaving an orphan.
Nature would not need humans to survive, if the human population was anywhere reasonable. We have modified nature to suit our numbers, and so are required to manage it. We no longer live in a "wild" world. [/b]
.....have you really thought about how much open space there is available out there? Check out ground in Texas, Western Kansas, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho....just to name a few. I dont think "over population" of humans is the reason for regulations within conservation. Market hunting brought that on many years ago when population of humans were a heck of a lot lower. One guy killing 1000 deer in a year is going to make a dent, its way more then he could ever use, so he would only do it to sell it. Thats why its also illegal to sell game in most States. Ive no doubt some Eastern States are well populated, but compared to the rest of the Country, there is a WHOLE lot of territory out there that aint seen a man in a long time. Think about it.... if its that over populated where you are, MOVE...theres lots of available space out there..
What newhouse114 stated about German game laws is imho the most ethical, the fawn or yearling odds of survival are less than the adult doe, the adult doe has better chance of producing another the next season than the fawn, emotions can distract rational thinking, to each his own. Game management laws are made for reasons, hopefully for the better in most cases. The young ones taste better and are more tender, also easier to drag to the truck. I don't hunt just to kill, but to enjoy the bounty of the magnificent creatures that I hunt,they feed my family and myself and for that I am truely greatful. May God bless the creatures big and small that provide us with sustenance.
This thread has gone way off track from what I was talking about .
The only thing I was saying was , it kinda made me feel weired having the fawn watching over my shoulder .
And I will add that I'm not a bunny hugger and I have no problem shooting a doe with a fawn , nore would I care if anyone else did .
Those animals are not humans and I don't think they have human emotions .
QuoteOriginally posted by Graps:
This thread has gone way off track from what I was talking about .
The only thing I was saying was , it kinda made me feel weired having the fawn watching over my shoulder .
And I will add that I'm not a bunny hugger and I have no problem shooting a doe with a fawn , nore would I care if anyone else did .
Those animals are not humans and I don't think they have human emotions .
BINGO! Thats exactly what I was waiting for someone to say.... my thoughts exactly graps.
I don't shoot a doe that has fawns with it in October, partially for this reason. I shoot a lone doe or wait until late in the season when I know the fawns can make it on their own. As I get older, I feel less of a need to have to kill something. I hunt for personal fulfillment, not because I need the meat.
QuoteOriginally posted by Shadowhnter:
QuoteOriginally posted by Doug_K:
QuoteOriginally posted by danbow:
I think we as humans go to far in thinking the wildlife need us to survive. Nature has a way of taking care of her own, they have done it for centuries. I don't think wolves, coyotes or any other predator stops to think whether or not they are leaving an orphan.
Nature would not need humans to survive, if the human population was anywhere reasonable. We have modified nature to suit our numbers, and so are required to manage it. We no longer live in a "wild" world. [/b]
.....have you really thought about how much open space there is available out there? Check out ground in Texas, Western Kansas, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho....just to name a few. I dont think "over population" of humans is the reason for regulations within conservation. Market hunting brought that on many years ago when population of humans were a heck of a lot lower. One guy killing 1000 deer in a year is going to make a dent, its way more then he could ever use, so he would only do it to sell it. Thats why its also illegal to sell game in most States. Ive no doubt some Eastern States are well populated, but compared to the rest of the Country, there is a WHOLE lot of territory out there that aint seen a man in a long time. Think about it.... if its that over populated where you are, MOVE...theres lots of available space out there.. [/b]
Not interested in keeping another pointless argument going, but I feel the need to chime in one last time on this.
If every human hunter at this point in time were to get protein for their family solely on game -management laws be damned- do you have any doubt that a major decimation of game would result, if not outright extinction in the long term? This is where conservation management and common sense come in. It wasn't all that long ago conservationists were ridiculed and silenced for looking ahead. Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
I have never "hugged a bunny" and as far as I know have never been called "tender hearted", however I think we have a good thing going in the USA, and I for one would like to see it continue. Choosing whether a single doe or fawn dies will not make a difference, and indeed it is often needed, but I do think the future of the herd should enter every ethical hunters mind before acting. Thinking nature will a assert itself despite our massive influence is naive at best.
There are definitely areas less populated in this country than others. But there are no "wild" areas in my state of Wisconsin, nor Michigan, nor any western state I've been to. Frankly, if I can see or hear a motorized vehicle within a week, I would have a hard time calling that anything remotely "wild". Alaska, some of the more isolated areas of Canada perhaps, I don't know, some day I hope to take a look for myself.
Regardless, I apologize to Graps for helping his story turn into a discussion on conservation (everybody hates those).
Mods feel free to delete if you feel it necessary, just needed to get it out.
As a bow hunter and deer hunter, I find your story to be quite disturbing. I strongly disagree with this action even though you had "permission" and it may have been legal. Why would you shoot a doe with a fawn? Are you really that needy? I really dont see the point in your tale. I think you are an unethical hunter and I will not read any more of your posts. I would like the Moderators to remove this thread. Part of me just thinks you're full of bull.
As hunters we are also managers of the wildlife we love. The majority of fawns that are seen with their mothers during hunting season are already weanable. Whitetails are weanable within two to three months of birth. There is data that suggest harvesting adult does with fawns is beneficial. You can read more about this in Quality Whitetails or on the QDMA website.
There is often and should be a level of remorse when we take the life of an animal. However, any emotion beyond that is due to anthropomorphism. Wild animals are not people. It is our right (both God-given and State-governed) to hunt these animals. Respect them, manage them for health and longevity, but don't give them emotions.
We have 3 Captian Kirks......