I have always shot arrows that I, as well as others, would deem as "way over spined". I try to have all my bows around 52@29 and have always shot cut short .400's or longer .340's.
Well, per a very trust worthy friends advice, (Big Jim), I swapped to a lighter spine. Jim has that IN HIS OPINION I should try a cut down 500 or a full length 400.
Bare shaft tuning is the only method I have ever had good results with that my broadheads tell me the same thing.
Well, arrow number 1. Is a full length .500, a full 32". I put the insert and tip weight I want in it and go with it.
.500 spine 32",
I shoot, WAY WEAK. Almost miss my target at 10 yard.
I begin trimming.. I get all the way down to 29" and the point is up on the shelf. Still showing weak.
400 spine 32"
Still weak.. trim, weak, trim weak, trim weak.. you get the picture.. exactly same result as with the .500, but it is getting closer and closer to being straight and hitting middle of the target.
.340 spine 31.5"(full length)
Comes off of the bow like an absolute dart. I shoot another one, same result, I fletch an arrow and shoot one with a broadhead.. bare shaft and broadhead shoot the exact same..
It just doesn't make sense to me. How is this my result?
Any insite?
For what its worth, this is the spine I have ALWAYS shot from my bows. But i do not know if it is "correct".
1. Trust your personal results
2. If your fletched field tipped arrows are marking the same as your BH tipped shafts just beyond your effective hunting range, then bareshafting is irrelevant.
3. There is much more information required regarding the particulars of your setup in order to formulate a possibly in-the-ballpark match.
I'm no expert but I say a bare shaft doesn't lie. I'm the same way shooting 340s from the 55-ish set up without much weight upfront
Don't sweat it , it shoot heavier than normal shafts as well .
Some people shoot lighter than normal .
Just the way it is sometimes .
Sounds like you stumbled on the perfect combo. Run with it.
I shoot "overspined" shafts as well. They fly good for me with broadheads, bare shafts, and field points. I figured out a while back to stick with what works.....unless you just enjoy throwing money away.
You shooting a Black Wifow? Or another bow that is center cut? That would be the only factor I could think to cause your results.
Have you done the same test at a longer range? Same results?
I'd not change what I've proven by testing because of what someone, even Big Jim, says...
At 52#@29, .500s seem a bit light to me. I'm surprised that .400s don't work. How heavy a point are you using? A heavy point, and a bow cut past center, as Steve O points out, will require or at least enable a heavier shaft.
You've obviously found a spine that works for you, so it is "correct" for you. Go with it.
Daniel, lots of variables. If your broadheads consistently fly true your good to go. Went thru the same process as you a while back and also ended up with the spine I was using, which is the same as you with similar weight bows.
Put a lighted nock on and shoot at dusk to prove you have no wobble. Will build confidence in your setup.
If it shoots properly, it is correct - period. True, there may be more than one "correct" arrow, so don't fret, just enjoy the diversity.
Your release is probably sloppy. This I not meant in rudeness either. Usually with a plucky type of release you need a pretty stiff arrow to compensate since the initial bend is far greater. Conversely if you release is super clean you will need a weaker spine. Tuning arrows with trad bows leaves a lot of variables the biggest being the shooter. Also point weight brace height, center cut, DL, and limb efficiency.
What kind of bow and as mentioned, how is the shelf cut?
If it works for you go with it. Period.
There are a lot of guys above whose opinions I greatly respect but..
My personal experience mirrors your previous posts about "perfectly stiff". I was shooting my 53# @28" Blacktail and experiencing similar results to yours. I went all the weigh up to over 80# spine. I also have 340s in the garage that I shot. I hunted one year with them- woodies- and was hitting what I was shooting at.
Funny thing, (and this is just my experience) the next summer I was shooting and working on my form and at I think twenty+ yards I could see arrows drifting left. (Like Ken Becks utube video) I started going to lighter and lighter spine.
I ended up shooting about 63# spine for bear hunting and was successful with that. I believe I was improperly gripping my bow and torquing the the bow or string at the release. Just my experience, fwiw.
But obviously you have to shoot what works.
I hope it all works out for you, Daniel.
This particular bow is a centaur triple csrbon, but it's not the only one I've experienced these results with.
Honestly, I think Jake may have a point. My release has been suffering lately, but this is the same results I've had for a while now, so I'm not sure my release is playing that big of a factor. It may not be as bad as I make it sound.
I shoot 175 grain heads with standard inserts
Shoot what works. Just always shoot the same.
i'd bet good money it's your release most people's release could be better. Mines sloppy too. I work on it with my wheel now because the let off lets me mimic a light bow.
P.S. Don't suppose you know a trad archer that works for AMR ambulance down there do ya? I worked with him down in Monroe for about 2 months several years back. Heck of a nice guy.
I might would know him if you knew his name.
I actually bought a bow "for my wife" from big jim a couple weeks ago. it is a #35 sammick sage with some predator .800 spine arrows. It will test the mess out of your release. it is sweet. I need to do some more form shooting with it.
It's been three years now and I'll be darned if I can't remember his name. He's about 6'1 maybe 280 likes long bows and is a pentacostal (as it seemed just about everybody was down there! Excellent peanut brittle but, lord help you if you try and buy beer on a Sunday!)
As has been pointed out, a lot will depend on the centershot of the riser, and I'm not familiar with how the Centaurs are cut. I will say this, knowing I'll hear a ration from the Border-hating contingent. I'm a Morrison fan and have shot Shawnees and Cheyennes in the 46-48# range for a long time. They are cut 3/16ths inch past center. My arrows were always approx. 30".500 spine with an average of 175 gr. points and broad heads. I've gotten into ILFs in the past few years and particularly like Border Hex 6.5's limbs(mainly because Bob wasn't making the Maxes at the time). I was surprised to find the .500's were a tad weak and that 30" .400's flew great with 145 gr. points. I was ready to attribute this to a metal riser and plunger(which will accommodate a wider range of spines). But I have a gorgeous B&W ebony ILF riser which is also cut 3/16th inch past and with the Hex 6.5's it will shoot .400's great also, but with 200 gr. points.
I am also getting good flight from arrows that are way too stiff. I've been to the spine calculator multiple times and looked over several charts but haven't found anything that comes even remotely close to what I'm shooting. I'm using what I have available until getting far enough along to upgrade which happens to be a Black Bear recurve 45# @ 28 drawing to about 26 so getting 40# at most with 28.5" 2016's 150gr points and 5" feathers. Arrow weight is 500gr. String is B50 with nothing added shooting split and tab. When I replaced the 40yr old rest the window was marked "45" so not gaining anything from a higher actual weight. I'm happy with the flight but only have four arrows and always contemplating the next purchase but reluctant to try something else or get more 2016's when everything points to needing something with much less spine.
The key is "Do they fly well bare? Do your broadheads fly with your field points? Do you shoot them consistently?"
If you answer yes to those, then you've got the right shafts!
FWIW, I shoot 340's out of my 53ish @ 29 PCH Widow with 75 grain brass inserts and a 200 grain head.
Your bow wants what it wants--- good job trying different combos and being willing to go with what it tells you even if it goes against the charts, advice, etc. I've always gotten good advice here and that is certainly a good place to start, but nothing can replace that first hand actual tuning and making adjustments needed for your bow and your form.
A bare shaft never delivers the coup de gras.
Even the famed master of bare shafting would not rely on his results until validated by broadhead testing and would often forgo bareshafting and tune his setups directly from a field tip fletched arrow to broadhead relationship.
My comment is not to abolish bareshafting as I often bareshaft tune out to 40 yards, conduct bareshaft only practice sessions and even utilize on an occasional 3D round. Particular Shot execution and shot execution variations as well as other factors may display skewed observations.
Jake, I hate to disagree with you but most people that require a weaker spine have creeping static releases, a guy with good back tension and a dynamic release(what I'd call a good release) requires a stiffer spined arrow IMO.
QuoteOriginally posted by Saguache:
Jake, I hate to disagree with you but most people that require a weaker spine have creeping static releases, a guy with good back tension and a dynamic release(what I'd call a good release) requires a stiffer spined arrow IMO.
I can site several real world examples the physics makes sense in my mind but, I am not sure I possess the technical language to explain it but, I'll try.
First real world example- Easton's tuning guide. If you look in the arrow charts they provide they have one for compounds with a release. They make a note for finger shooters that you need to move up to the next bracket in arrow stiffness because of the increase paradox fingers introduces
Real world 2- The renowned archer Joel turner use a thumb release which he describes a inducing very little paradox. He notes that he had to drop a substantial amount of spine in order to get his arrows to fly correctly because of it.
My lame attempt at explaining why this is so-
when the bow string leaves you fingers it forces the string away from your bow and the arrow INTO the bow. The arrow then springs back again (and again and again several times to a lesser degree) around the riser. The harsher the release, the more violent the initial bend and following level of flexing, the stiffer the arrow needs to be to compensate. With a clean release the initial bend is much less making a heavily spined arrow show stiff as it had less lateral force exerted against it. And the recovery bounces it left(r handed shooter).
Jake,I understand what you are saying. The point I was trying to make(admittedly poorly stated) was that with a soft release the initial force on the arrow is buffered by the slower acceleration of the string sliding off the fingers making the force on the arrow less abrupt and in practice applying less force to put the arrow into paradox. I've seen it both ways so what you are asserting could be valid in some cases but I wouldn't think it would be the the case always. All I can say is that in my experience arrows shoot with a more dynamic(abrupt) release act like they are shot from a heavier bow while a softer release might make the arrow react like it was shot from a lighter draw weight. The thumb release is very linear and generally induces less paradox than fingers do, a thumb tab or ring acts much like a release aid so it makes sense that a lighter spine might be needed to get the arrow around the riser. I'm not saying that you are absolutely wrong, just that there might be another explanation for the problem the OP is having. By the way I shoot a 31".400 spine with 145 grains up front out of a 53# @29.5 bow and get slightly weak bare shafts and great broadhead flight for what its worth.
I see your point man. I think it only enforces A) how tricky it can be to make any spine or form judgements over a forum and B) just how many different kinds of form there are! Good point.