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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Vesty on June 02, 2016, 09:41:00 AM
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I believe the limb design is the same on these bows. Has anyone noticed a speed difference between them due to the reverse handle design on the Whisper.
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there's no speed difference that I've seen. The only difference would be shooter related, torque on one vs. the other. Steve's ASL models are really close to each other in the speed department. A string follow Shelton only loses about 3fps compared to a backset model like the Classic. Steve tests his bows extensively in the areas of speed and cast. The Whisper is still my favorite model, but I'm waiting on a Ramer, the new string follow version of the whisper.
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I have a couple of both. No speed difference with the same brace height but most people shoot a high brace on the whisper and that will slow it down.
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The Shelton is the favorite of the three between classic, Shelton, and whisper. I currently have the Shelton, but have shot all three side by side. I really didn't notice any difference in the speed in shooting the three bows of like poundage in steve's shop. I was almost the first guinea pig for the 'Ramer' (no name then), but liked the Shelton too much.
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I have never owned a Classic, but have shot them. As of right now, I have landed on the Whisper as my go to longbow. I'm very interested in the Ramer, if Steve has one in green glass at Compton.....it may find a home :bigsmyl:
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I have shot the Classic and own a Whisper and Shelton. I did not notice any difference in speed between the three. I did notice I shot the Shelton much better than the other two.
I was very surprised that I would like the grip on the Whisper. I got the bow in a trade and did like it very much.
Like Ray said the Shelton is my favorite. I don't think you would be making a mistake with any of the NM bows mentioned.
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Originally posted by Gordon Jabben:
I have a couple of both. No speed difference with the same brace height but most people shoot a high brace on the whisper and that will slow it down.
Steve's chimed in on this before. The Whisper should be over a 7" brace. It's the reverse handle design that makes it that way. You don't have the handle to measure from. If you have a 6 1/4" brace on a Classic and take the handle out of the equation, it's going to be over 7". A lot of guys are trying to run a similar brace height that they have on their standard ASL and it's too low. It also robs performance since the limbs have less preload and actual lower draw weight.
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By the way, Steve makes a simple, accurate, tool look stunning.
(http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg617/shrewshooter/20150727_184448_zps5euh8hyw.jpg) (http://s1246.photobucket.com/user/shrewshooter/media/20150727_184448_zps5euh8hyw.jpg.html)
(http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg617/shrewshooter/P6290630_zpsyesv1hnl.jpg) (http://s1246.photobucket.com/user/shrewshooter/media/P6290630_zpsyesv1hnl.jpg.html)
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Bow looks kinda familiar Ray :thumbsup:
(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h121/mandoman_2006/Northern%20Mist%20bows/P7070017_zps09506e32.jpg) (http://s63.photobucket.com/user/mandoman_2006/media/Northern%20Mist%20bows/P7070017_zps09506e32.jpg.html)
(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h121/mandoman_2006/Northern%20Mist%20bows/P7070015_zps6843a3fe.jpg) (http://s63.photobucket.com/user/mandoman_2006/media/Northern%20Mist%20bows/P7070015_zps6843a3fe.jpg.html)
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JR, I hate to disagree but I have found that the greater the brace height on the Whisper the slower it gets. I guess that would be true on all bows.
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Great minds think alike Eric.
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Originally posted by Gordon Jabben:
JR, I hate to disagree but I have found that the greater the brace height on the Whisper the slower it gets. I guess that would be true on all bows.
You don't have to agree with me, that's coming from the man that made the bow. If you get good tune at that low of a brace height, good for you. It's just a fact that your limbs have no load on them. Chrono an arrow tuned for the bow at the correct brace and you'll see what I mean.
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JR,
You are right in that you are loosing some preload in the limbs by dropping the brace height. But not near as much as going from a Classic limb to a Shelton limb and look how little that effects performance.
The big loss by keeping the same theoretical brace height when going to a whisper is in the power stroke. My Classics have 1-5/8 to 1-3/4" of handle wood (not counting the limb lams)taking that much from the power stroke is a huge loss in performance, much more than the 1 pound (max) of draw weight gained with a higher brace height.
I draw 29", the power stroke on my bow is 20-3/4", flip 1-3/4" of wood around to the front of the bow and that drops to 19" and that is huge loss of energy going into the arrow. About like comparing a 50 @ 28 bow to a 49 @ 29-3/4...I'll take the later.
A number of people over the years have tried running an above normal brace height on their bows to make it more forgiving...and it works...but they all loose speed....Fact
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Jr, I guess the results may vary. ;)
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I like a higher brace on all my bows......don't care how fast it is.....just like it that way. I think silent is more important that speed and my Whispers are called that for a reason!!
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Originally posted by WESTBROOK:
JR,
You are right in that you are loosing some preload in the limbs by dropping the brace height. But not near as much as going from a Classic limb to a Shelton limb and look how little that effects performance.
The big loss by keeping the same theoretical brace height when going to a whisper is in the power stroke. My Classics have 1-5/8 to 1-3/4" of handle wood (not counting the limb lams)taking that much from the power stroke is a huge loss in performance, much more than the 1 pound (max) of draw weight gained with a higher brace height.
I draw 29", the power stroke on my bow is 20-3/4", flip 1-3/4" of wood around to the front of the bow and that drops to 19" and that is huge loss of energy going into the arrow. About like comparing a 50 @ 28 bow to a 49 @ 29-3/4...I'll take the later.
A number of people over the years have tried running an above normal brace height on their bows to make it more forgiving...and it works...but they all loose speed....Fact
You're not losing any power stroke. Moving the handle doesn't change where the string stops at brace. Y'all are throwing aroung alot of math without scaling or chronographing the bow at both heights to actually do a valid test.
There's a 3fps difference between the shelton and a classic in a true test. It's the lack of "snap" that a classic has with a backset design that a shelton lacks. They have the same limb profile at brace.
I've seen more than one person running the low brace and thinking they were right until they raised it and ran it through a chrono again. The bow isn't performing in any way like it should run that low. I tried it too. It feels worse on the shot, lower speed, and vibrated/noisier. Mainly, not to Steve's design. It's your bow though. Run it how you want it. I could put an audio recording of me and Steve talking about this and still have arguing.
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You move an inch and a half of handle from the belly to the back of the limbs and dont adjust the brace you are, in effect, drawing the the bow an inch and a half less...pretty simple.
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You move an inch and a half of handle from the belly to the back of the limbs and dont adjust the brace you are, in effect, drawing the the bow an inch and a half less...pretty simple.
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There's more to it than just brace height & power stroke. I haven't talked with Steve about this, but I'm pretty sure that a 68" 50#@28" NM Classic doesn't have the exact same limbs (stack thickness, etc.) as a 68" 50#@28" Whisper (reverse handle). Assuming the same limb profile, width, and taper rate, the limbs on the Whisper would have to be a tad thicker (deeper) to give the same draw weight at the same draw length as the Classic.
If you could take a 50#@28" Classic, and simply move the riser to the back side to make it a reverse-handle bow, you wouldn't have a 50#@28" reverse-handle bow. The draw weight at 28" would be a few pounds lower.
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You guys are pretty darned scientific. I just twist my string up and/or down until it is quiet and shooting well. I don't tie on a nock or put silencers on until I'm happy with brace height. I always START where the bowyer recommends, it usually isn't far from there.
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Originally posted by Roger Norris:
You guys are pretty darned scientific. I just twist my string up and/or down until it is quiet and shooting well. I don't tie on a nock or put silencers on until I'm happy with brace height. I always START where the bowyer recommends, it usually isn't far from there.
Yep.
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Scientific? Not hardly, just basic bow mechanics and what happens when you do this instead of that.
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One thing that can definitely be gotten out of this is no matter how you set it up, it's going to be a shooter. Not many bows can be run all over the place as far as this much difference, and everyone still be happy with how it performs.
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JR, what length is your Whisper?
I'm on the fence between 66 & 68" for 29" draw
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66" 53#@28. actually scales 63# at my draw
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JR, what length is your Whisper?
I'm on the fence between 66 & 68" for 29" draw
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Ok, I'm going to admit I was wrong, at least up to a point on the brace height and difference in speed of the bow. I went to the local archery shop and used their coronagraph and here are the results.
I draw 27" and have a less than crisp release. The same arrow was used-540 grain 56# spine cedar shaft with large 5" feathers. Both bows used in the test were 68" Northern Mist Whispers.
59# bow 6 1/4" brace 164,162,166,163 fps
59# bow 7 1/2" brace 161,163,160,158,161 fps
The 59# bow has string silencers and is 18 strand B-55.
56# bow 6 3/4" brace 163,166,165 fps
56# bow 7 1/2" brace 164,166,164,166 fps.
The 56# bow doesn't have silencers and is 16 strand B-50.
For comparison, I shot a very r/d 69" 55# bow with an 18 strand B-50 string with silencers and shot 165 and 166 fps.
I couldn't really compare the Whisper to the Classic because I have skinny ff strings on the Classic.
I'm going to conclude on my bows the brace height doesn't make a noticeable difference on the bow speed.
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Originally posted by WESTBROOK:
JR, what length is your Whisper?
I'm on the fence between 66 & 68" for 29" draw
I'd go with the 66". I have a 30" draw and mine is still very comfortable at my draw length. At 29" it'll be like butter
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Originally posted by Gordon Jabben:
Ok, I'm going to admit I was wrong, at least up to a point on the brace height and difference in speed of the bow. I went to the local archery shop and used their coronagraph and here are the results.
I draw 27" and have a less than crisp release. The same arrow was used-540 grain 56# spine cedar shaft with large 5" feathers. Both bows used in the test were 68" Northern Mist Whispers.
59# bow 6 1/4" brace 164,162,166,163 fps
59# bow 7 1/2" brace 161,163,160,158,161 fps
The 59# bow has string silencers and is 18 strand B-55.
56# bow 6 3/4" brace 163,166,165 fps
56# bow 7 1/2" brace 164,166,164,166 fps.
The 56# bow doesn't have silencers and is 16 strand B-50.
For comparison, I shot a very r/d 69" 55# bow with an 18 strand B-50 string with silencers and shot 165 and 166 fps.
I couldn't really compare the Whisper to the Classic because I have skinny ff strings on the Classic.
I'm going to conclude on my bows the brace height doesn't make a noticeable difference on the bow speed.
It's still pretty cool that it's doing around the same with such a difference in brace heights. Cool test
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Thanks JR, I was really surprised. Just shooting these bows, I would have sworn the higher brace height really slowed them down.
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Kinda surprised me the lower didn't change performance much either. I guess that's a good sign if the brace height drops and you don't notice. I've seen a few twists really mess up arrow flight on other bows.
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Eric,
Double check with Steve is always the safe answer. While I was waiting for my Shelton, I picked up a used JD Berry Northstar. It's a reverse handle string follow model. It was only 62" and shot very nicely for my 28/28.25 inch draw. My Shelton is 66" and feels great to me. I like the length better than my 68" Hill Tembo (I know it's not the same design). I've also got a 66" Shultz Natural, which is a string follow design. In a string follow, I think you can get away with a little less bow length for a given draw. But that's my opinion, not a factual test or bow test knowledge. Your mileage may vary......
If you weren't a southpaw, I'd tell you to scoot up to Krogels range and shoot through the course.
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Yea Ray, being LH sucks for that reason...I dont get to try a lot of bows...but it has saved me a lot of money just the same.
I know Steve has built some short Whispers, like 60-62", but I'm not gonna try that. I have 2 Sheltons at 68" and 3 Classics at 70,70 & 68" so I'm pretty used to the length. So I wa just figuring 2" less than normal for the reverse handle.
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Here is what I have found...I own Sheltons, Whispers, a Classic and the first Ramer. I have tested them all including several other ASL over the years and Steve's bows perform as good, usually better as any ASL. There is maybe 3 fps difference between the Northern Mist models with the reverse handles being very slightly slower with the same limb profile. Nothing anyone would ever notice in the field or even in arrow matching.
Also string material (ff, ff skinny, dacron) makes little difference speed wise (maybe 2 fps) with an ASL with hunting weight arrows (10+ gpp), so if you like the better dampening of B50 as I do you are again losing nothing noticeable.
I am in the camp of tuning the brace height of the bow for least vibration/noise. The Sheltons (66in and 68in) are usually around 6in, 2 Whispers (66in and 68in) at 6 5/8in and the Ramer (66in) likes 6.5in best. String follows seem to like a slightly lower brace?
They shoot ok at higher brace, they are all very well mannered. My testing showed similar as above...raising the brace height will slightly increase draw weight, slightly decrease cast (not sure why, I think the longer power stroke trumps the slight draw weight increase). Anyway the results are easy to measure and consistent but again the difference is so small it is irrelevant.
The limb material also makes little difference (I cannot measure any).
What is important to me is that Steve's bows are so consistent I can pick out any one and still be on target..
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As far as bow length on the reverse handles...I need a 30in arrow (about 29in draw length) and the 66in Whisper is fine. I do like the 68in better though. I have shot a 64in Whisper and it would be ok at about 28in.
The string follow seems to allow a shorter bow also, a 66in Shelton is fine for me but I prefer 68in. The Ramer is a 66in bow and is more than enough length for me. I will get the next Ramer at 68in though, don't ask me why, I do not know.
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Real good info Mike, Thanks!
I'm about the same as far as bow length, the 68" Classic works fine but I do like shooting the 70" better. So here I am...66 or 68"...got a coin?..
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Eric. I would not go any less than 66 inch for you. I was just using the 62" Berry as an example.
And with your stable of longbows I'd go with 68".
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Ray..how early is too early at Krogels?
Goin saturday...
Be there if your doin nothin.
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Sorry Eric, I've got a couple of graduation party's to attend. Krogel's have lock box all set, so go as early as you want. Just sign the waver form as you have to do the first time on the course every year. Have fun.
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I know this is an old thread, but for those of you that have a classic and a whisper does the draw cycle feel the same between the two?
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I have two Classics and a Shelton, but have never shot a Whisper. Is the Whisper that much quieter? The Classic is a very quiet shooter and the Shelton even more so.
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I have a Whisper and a Classic that are within 2lbs in draw weight, and I don’t notice any difference in the sound
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I have a Whisper and a Classic that are within 2lbs in draw weight, and I don’t notice any difference in the sounde
Which do you prefer and why?
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I don’t really have a preference. I’ve had the Whisper the longest, so I’ve shot it more and may be more accurate with it, but the Classic just looks like a longbow should look!
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Gotta love the whisper
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I need a classic to compare. Anyone wanna sell me there’s I’m your guy :bigsmyl: :wavey:
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Gotta love the e whisper
What are your whisper specs?
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I wonder what this guy would have said.
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I'd like to try a reverse handle some day.
If you'll notice in above picture the grip is neither reverse or normal, sort of in between. Anyone know for sure if this was one of Howards bows?
Also note that the string Howard appears to be using is an endless.
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Sort of like this one?
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Nice Liberty English!
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Good eye Kelly. I’ve had about 6 other longbows, two or three were reverse handles. This Liberty has my favorite grip by far. I never question if my hand placement is right and for sure the most comfortable, of the 66”-68” longbows I’ve had.