Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: jackdaw on May 15, 2016, 11:26:00 PM
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Here's and interesting , not overly scientific test performed by four of us at an event over the weekend. People over the years on here have eluded to what kind of velocites they get out of their longbow or recurve??? And the common response on here is "who cares"??
Well, after five of us tried out a bevy of bows , ranging in draw weight from my 43# wing to a 55# Rose Oak recurve...and a dozen other "high performance" longbows and recurves, results were very surprising....not so much by how much or by how little velocity they achieved....but by SOOO much more..!!!! Ill explain..!
First off....we used the same individual arrow for ALL the testing....a 500# spine Gold Tip cut to 29 1/2". Weight was around 440 grains which made it a relatively light arrow for the test.....! Very surprisingly.....many of the bows we tested were amazingly close to each other....with most falling into the 173 fps to the upper 180s ....191fps the the top speed recorded...by the heaviest bow...the 55# Rose Oak...! Although the arrow was around 8.5 gpp. With most being within 8 fps of each other.! They were :
A black widow 52# recurve
A rose oak 55# recurve
A leon stewart 50# slammer
An original 67.5 Bear super k 50#
A holcomb 59 kodiak repro 51#
A tall tines recurve 53#
A mcullough griffin 51#
A hummingbird longbow 51#
A wing 43# recurve
An old Indian scout 50# recurve
And a few others
Here are the lessons.....even though the test arrow remained constant along with the bows, the results varied from shooter to shooter...!!! Sometimes dramitically.!! Our drawlengths were similar, but releases were not.....WHAT A DIFFERENCE..!!
Most times 4 of us were within a couple fps of each other, but one shooter....the shortest of all of us....CONSISTANTLY was 8-10 fps FASTER than the rest of us across the chronograph.!! It HAD to be release???? He draws 27.5"...a few of us draw over 28"..! It did not matter which bow...it was everytime.!! And NO, He wasnt plucking. ...draw...pause and release..!!!! We were ALL surprised by this..!!!
It also magnified how much changes or breaks in form affected the bows performance..!! Often by 5-10 fps..! I recently opened my stance ...effectively shortening my draw length....it cost me 18 fps over the other shooter with MY BOW..!! A lesson quickly learned..and remedied..!!!
Long story short...the chronograph was a super usefull teaching aid in magnifying the benefits , (or lack there of ), of an inconsistant release. Also in draw length differences and In form breaks.
The OTHER IMPORTANT LESSON learned by all of us was to find a bow, in a weight you can comfortably handle, and practicd with it. The was no significant advantage to 5-8 pounds difference in draw weight.....! The velocity difference was about the same amongst 99% of these bows...!! Maybe 5-7fps..??? More importantly, an inconsistant release can cause you to vary that much shot to shot..!!! A 2 1/2 hour session which surprised all of us....all VERY seasoned shooters!! It ain't' about speed...its about bow fit, consistant release and lastly personal preference as to bow stlyle.....the was virtually no difference between longbow or recurve performance..!!!! Very interesting..!!!
In a nutshell...get your hands on a chronograph and see for yourself..!!! Most bows were shot again later with true 10 gpp arrows...made about a 8-10 fps difference in speed...to the detriment. We all agreed.....to keep the "arch" in archery..!! Just thoight I would share our litte experiment. !!! Keep shooting gentlemen.......... :-D
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I've always wondered about release, I seem to get really good speed out of most bows with a 28 to 29 inch draw length. My 59# TallTines for instance was shooting a 600 grain arrow at 180-185 ft./s last I checked. I guess that means I have a good release? Now if I could only get that bow arm to cooperate!
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Thanks for posting Jackdaw! I chrono all my bows, and record the speed as being the average of a number of shots, usually about 10, that are within 2-3 fps of each other, using the arrow I intend to shoot with that bow. Usually I have to throw out 2-3 out of 10 shots that are out of that 2-3 fps range, usually on the low side, but sometimes on the high side, too. In my case, I think the anomalies are more because of inconsistencies in my draw than release errors, although I get some of those too.
There is a big difference in recorded speeds between my target bows, which are in the 185-195 fps range, and my hunting bows, which are in the 175-185 fps range, because of the weight of the arrows. I like to know what speed I can expect based on my intended use of the bow.
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This is very interesting reading. Thank you for the work, and for posting it.
Murray
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Very interesting
Not surprised about the importance of the release.
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Yes, thanks for posting.
I enjoy doing same thing y'all did ( did Saturday in fact), and when guys give the "who cares", I quietly respond, well I do.
I have learned a lot about my equipment AND myself with a chronograph.
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Head scratcher; thanks for the interesting post.
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It was fun.....especially when a 50# indian scout...which was purchased that day for 40 $ came within 2 fps of most of those high priced bows.....amusing....
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Thanks for the posting the information. I received a chronograph last year as a gift. Man! have I used it. It has been very educational.
I have shot about 25 different bows through it. All of my buddies want to shoot their bows through the chronograph. Most of the time they walk away unhappy.
What they thought was a 190 - 200 fps bow; turned into a 170-180 fps. Me included.
I have played with brace height, arrow weight and different glove material. It is amazing what your release has to do with arrow velocity.
Out of all the bows we have shot; I don't think I have seen a 190 fps bow. We have even shot two different bows exact same draw weight with the exact same arrow and there would be 8-10 fps difference. We also use a digital bow scale to make sure the weight was the same.
One buddy of mine who has killed numerous deer with his longbow swore that his longbow was the fastest bow he owned. It turned out to be the slowest but he has killed more deer with it than the rest of his bows combined.
Why? Because he is more accurate with it and he loves the way it shoots.
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Thanks Matt for the add-on! Great stuff...!!!! You got that right about the disappointed look on people's faces when they actually see what they're bow is doing! They're are a lot of bows in that 165-175 fps range..!!! Which in all honesty is WAYfast enough, but they get hung up on that magic (?) 200 fps number. It is obtainable, but generally takes a 60#+ bow to get there. Yes, I saw a number of people slump back to their Camp very disappointed, when they should not be. They shoot what they have very consistently, and that's the most important criteria. I'm curious to see who else comments on this thread......thank you for your nickle's worth......:-D
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I've never said I don't care how fast my bows are. What I do care about is how WELL I shoot them. I do concur with the importance of a consistent anchor and clean release to consistent arrow speed and a corresponding result in consistent accuracy. If only we could consistently do it. :help:
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Great post! Thanks!
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I have only been surprised by a chronograph once. Velocity was less than I expected then, and has stayed relatively low every time I have tried it since. However, I realized that, if I shot straight, the bow still performed just fine. That was when I developed the "who cares" attitude. Since then, arrow speed has been low on my worry list. Most of my bows shoot at relatively close speeds.
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I love my chrono! It's as you said a very good way to learn faults in your form, when you keep getting duplicate readings at the right speed you know your doing it right!
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The most interesting thing about chronoing bows is the differences in efficiency from one to the next. When you shoot the same arrow thru different draw weight bows it is surprising. An example I have a 45 lb bow that shoots its 456 gr. arrows at 182. Three different heavier bows 56, 57, and 58. Could only best it by 5 fps.
MAP
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Great post! Thank you for the work and information. :thumbsup:
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Thanks for the post. For many years Blackie Schultz reviewed a different bow every month for Traditional Bowhunter Magazine. Your conclusions are similar to what he found. He always shot 9 to 1 grains per pound of draw weight arrows, drawn to 28"s and chronographed with fingers and a machine. With fingers a large majority of the recurves and d/r longbows shot 180-185 f.p.s., the recurves were generally slightly faster. Carbon limbs usually added a few f.p.s. and the shooting machine was 5 f.p.s. faster than fingers. With some prior posts here and on the other tradsite where much faster speeds are achieved, I'm left to conclude that there are simply much faster chronographs out there.
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Fun test; I'm not all that surprised. There is a reason most trad shooters say they don't care about the chronograph and your test confirms it.
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That's right! As we said earlier let's keep the Arch in archery..!! Chronographs are very useful tools, Knowing your arrow speed is just one of them...
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This is a very cool read
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That's right! As we said earlier let's keep the Arch in archery..!! Chronographs are very useful tools, Knowing your arrow speed is just one of them...
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I've had a lot of fun with my chronograph as well. It made a difference in one bow in about 30 or so that I've owned.
I dumped that bow because it was horrendous. I didn't need a chronograph to know it though. I could tell at 13 yards with my point on test that it was under performing.
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Rod Jenkins has mentioned this on the "shooting tips" section of his site (www.safarituff.com)for years. You can easily pick up 6-12 fps with a proper release technique.
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Hard to argue with Rod Jenkins..!! Just take what he says and applying to your bows...!!! Trust me guys, it's Grand fun with your own chronograph and your own stuff!.....!
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Good post.
I was wondering if using a tab versus glove made a noticeable difference?
Thanks,
Gary
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Curiously, we were all shooting gloves! Truthfully a tab probably woild be minoscully faster due to a clean single point release. But needs some research.
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Curiously, we were all shooting gloves! Truthfully a tab probably woild be minoscully faster due to a clean single point release. But needs some research.
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Well John just to correct a few tings. The widow was 53lbs it was mine, the drawl length was 27 not 27.5 it was mine, I have a pull threw release I do not pause, it was a Indian Savage 50lbs that was mine, and one of us used a tab Matt, and cronys are a lot of fun and a very usefull tool it was mine and anyone is welcome to shoot over it. That was a cool post buddy just had to correct a few things LOL. Widow
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Flight shooters will consistently get higher speeds than a an archer that anchors , holds, and then releases the shaft.....
The only accurate way to test one bow vs the other is using a shooting machine....That tells you what the bow is doing, the rest is up to the archer.
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Chrono is a great device to learn some bow physics. An interesting thing for me is to shoot through a chrono to a remote target trying to hit it( real shot) and best with first shot ( cold shot).
This way you may have the the hugiest surprises: if you are a tad overbowed the cold shot test is terrible as you will find that if you ad the effect of underdrawing and a frozen release of a too heavy bow against full draw and slick release of a lighter one you feel immediately comfy with, most of the time arrow is faster and moreover more accurate with the lighter bow...
Though a light fast bow will always be faster than the same weight slow bow for same archer
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Sorry Darren...There was a lot of info to retain and Digest. ButLike I said, it was a non-scientific test... so by and large I got the proper point across I guess. .Glad the chrony was there....made for a great day of shooting.......Feel free to add any other points of that days shooting... tried to remember them all but can't......all good.........Wass going to name some names, but thought I should not........But glad you chimed in....
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One way I check for consistent release is by shooting Technohunt...the machine is capable of measuring the speed of every arrow that you shoot and gives you a printout at the end...I consider that if I am getting the same velocity at the end of a 40 arrow shooting session that I was at the beginning then I am not overbowed
DDave
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I was very impressed with my own consistency during one session. I was running most shots only one or two fps apart. But, every now and then there would be a shot that ran six or seven fps high. Naturally, I attributed the variations to the Chrony. :)
Now, after reflecting on this topic, I realize that my consistent release is horrible and the high shots were me accidentally making a good release. :biglaugh:
The dilemma; do I try to perfect the release or try to make every shot release consistently horrible?
Gonna try not to think about it any more. :cool:
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This arrow was too light to even get into the area where you would see a real difference in performance as the "high performance" bows are more optimized for heavier arrows. That does not always mean big differences in speed with lighter arrows. And release can make about 10 fps easily.
More interesting would have been, what your rigs did in comparison with each other in relation to what gpp each of you shoots with a matched arrow.
Will one bow shoot an 11gpp as fast as the other with 9gpp? Will the bow with the shorter draw and heavier arrow outshoot another bow with a longer draw and a lighter arrow?
Were some of the bows laid up and tillered for a specific draw length?
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Well guys when I shoot a arrow and I can't catch it well it's fast enough for me . Keep the arch in archery
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Velocity was the least important lesson learned on that day! Differences in draw length And release were the important ones.!!As I stated earlier some of us did go back later and shot our normal hunting arrows. We basically lost 8 to 10 feet per second over that light arrow. Lots of information to be gleaned from over a chronograph.......light. s. heavy arrow velocity.....release differences....etc.....it was all good.