I have noticed something over the years. Trad itional hunters seem to have a higher sense of hunter ethics, knowlegde of bowhunting hertiage and a comradie that is second only to the military.I shoot compounds mainly but share the values of the traditional shooter, hunter. Has anyone else noticed this?
:archer:
Yes, I believe you may be correct maddawg. I think a lot of it is that you are dealing with a group of people who choose to hunt in a particular way and take on particular self-imposed limitations when taking game. People of this mindset are less concerned with killing something than they are at enjoying the experience and the rewards of the challenges they take. Therefore they are more likely to follow game laws and have higher ethics than others. Sadly, many people hunt with the kill as the only reward and will do whatever is neccessary to succeed. I trust there aren't many like that here. High hunter ethics are not limited to any one group as there are thousands of ethical gun hunters, compound hunters etc. But it does seem that a lot of people on this site seem to share many of the same standards when it comes to ethics and that is encouraging. :thumbsup:
Well said TSHOOTER. :thumbsup:
Well said.
I find most who Trad hunt love to "hunt" which involves much more than the kill. I was just telling my wife the difference is that I love the journey. Somethimes it involves a kill the it is always a journey.
Couldn't say it any better... Thank You Scott! :thumbsup:
... mike ...
Get a room guys.
AMEN TO THAT!!!!!!!
John 4,
Since it appears you are new here, I guess you think comments such as yours are apropriate, but you should understand that for such a large group, we are pretty tight-knit. We treat each other with respect, even when we disagree. This is HOME to a great many people. You are welcome to the fold, but please be respectful of everyone on this forum.
Thanks,
Russ
yes i understand what your saying and i do agree, but as stated by others other groups of hunters are also etichal. My father has never shot a trad bow in his life but he hunts with a compound and rifles and he knows the woods and the ways of animals better than anyone i know... by far. He has the up-most respect for animals he takes.
But this doesnt mean there isnt people who shoot trad equipment that arent corrupt, its sad but the truth and thats life. But bottom line there are people who shoot compounds, rifles, shotguns, long bows and recurves who are etical do things by the law and respect nature and everything in it....Curtis
I noticed a certain comoradarie amongst the traddies when I started devoting myself to trad as well...I still hae a compound
but havent taken it out of the case in 3 years. My brother asked me the other day if I was still going to keep with the traditional hunting and I said yes! His reply! HARDCORE!!..but was said in a way that I could feel the respect coming from it. He wants to go trad but just wont spend the time in practice to git er done. My youngest brother...he's a different animal..loves hunting with a longbow but just doesnt have his confidence
I have been to exactly two trad events(so far!!), three if ya count Mikes range, and I do. All of those experiences were at the top of the list for friends, and good times. I still am amazed at how helpful everyone is...how genuine. It is a nice group to be a part of.
TSHOOTER, my thoughts exactly.
Mark
Ethics, can really be judged by none of us. What is ethical to some is not to others even on here. Shawn
Ethics ARE judged by all of us. If nobody gives a rat's a##, ethics will be lost.
QuoteWhat is ethical to some is not to others even on here.
That's why we argue so much on here!
Biggie, thats my point! You just made it. Shawn
I agree Biggie, we need to be accountable to each other.
Maddawg.....In general I certainly agree with you. However, have you noticed how many baby bucks are dying and getting posted on this site alone?
That surprises me. I thought, regardless of the weapon used, that the "traditional type" personality and "let the baby bucks walk" personality were directly correlated. It is obvious I am wrong.
That just really surprises me.
Richie
I'm pretty new to recurve shooting, so right now I'll take ANY legal shot I can get. However, already this year I'm certain I could have killed more than a dozen deer if I had had a shotgun or muzzleloader. The latest was Saturday: a monster 14-16pt. muley which I stalked (a.k.a. belly-crawled) to within 100 yds in an open rye stubble field... even though I knew I probably wouldn't be able to get close enough for a recurve shot. I knew I'd had better luck "killing" some other deer on another section of land... but I knew I'd regret not taking the chance to "hunt" this trophy buck. I was able to just watch him (and his magnificent/grotesque rack) for about six hours before he knew something wasn't right... and wandered off.
If I ever go "gun-hunting" again, it'llbe SOOOoooo easy!
My thought on it is that most of us Trad hunters are older guys... Most of us have killed truck loads of deer and just wanted to make it more interesting after years of rifle, shotgun and compound hunting.
I really don't care about rack size anymore.... Not saying given the choice between the monster and a yearling I would't take the monster... But, It fills me with pride that all my practice, and hard work helped me harvest that small buck. That I didn't take an easier way. And I am much more proud of that small buck or doe than I ever would be of the monster with a rifle or compound at 40+ yards.
The taking of "baby bucks" has nothing to do with ethics, it's simply a matter of personal choice. Those of us who've taken a few dozen deer tend to gravitate towards bigger bucks as an additional challenege to the hunt. It's not fair to command the same choice for those who haven't taken a bunch of deer or who simply are satisfied with A deer.
I do get tickled though when I see a thread with 4 or 5 pages of posts over a yearling doe :-)
I too love to see all the posts for everyones success, be it a doe, buck, or squirrel.
That IS value, and ETHICS.
Antler size has nothing to do with ethics. I just killed a 5 inch spike here in Florida with my recurve and that deer meant ten times more to me the rifle killed deer(s) on my wall.
Tradtional Archery has brought me back to my hunting roots and where my ethics began.
I just personally don't undersand why so many people say, after taking a young buck, "That is a good buck for a recurve" vs. a gun.
The deer is dead regardless of the weapon. If it wasn't good enough for a gun then why is it for a bow. The deer is still dead and will never see a mature day in it's life.
String cutter says "that I didn't take an easier way", referring about taking the young buck. That is the easier way. The traditional way is not the hard way. It is just shooting a bow. Take a mature buck. That is the hard way.
I guess you have to give at least .02 cents for sound management of the animals.
I am not suggesting that taking young bucks is a morally wrong thing to do. I am just very surprised that the traditional type would think that way.
Richie
Richie... you never know what was in their heart when they shot the little buck. I have had the good fortune to be able to hunt a lot of places and take a lot of great animals with a bow. When I was about 19 myself and a friend both shot what you call a baby buck with our recurves. One little spike and one was a little fork horn. That night setting at our camp fire looking at our two deer hanging in the fire light, I have never been prouder of an animal.
That is exactly my point. Those are good times and great memories, no doubt. I just thought that more experienced hunters would not be proud of little baby bucks any longer. It is so much better, I think, to take a doe than to continue to decrease the buck population via taking them when they are extremely easy to harvest because they are so young.
Again, please understand that I am not suggesting you or anyone else is morally wrong. I just highly disagree due to sound reasoning.
I have never taken a buck with my bow. I have taken many does and passed many bucks. I went elk hunting for the first time this year and harvested a 6x5 bull. The more and more I have learned about elk hunting in the last month the more I realize that he was probably too small and young. Now I know it will do nothing for me to harvest a less than mature bull again.
Like other guys are saying, we want a challenge and not take the easy way of hunting, hence the traditional equipment.
That is my point exactly.
So anyway, thanks for the discussion.
I see what you're saying Ritchie, but I went back and reveiwed some of the posts you are (I think) talking about. In many cases these deer were among the first, if not the very first deer they had taken with a trad bow. Also many of the places these folks hunt is on over-hunted public land and just seeing a deer, let alone getting a shot is an accomplishment! I looked over the post that had a title of something like..."how many are lookig for their first" and I was kind of surprised of the number of folks that are long time members here that are indeed "looking for their first". I thinks it is really cool that when they do get their deer, the folks here at tradgang are some of the first to hear the story and see the photos! It's all good if the deer is taken legally and ethically! Hunt hard and hunt safe! Mike
Ethics and the tool in your hand have little to nothing in common.
The tool by itself causes neither good or bad ethics.
I'm w/ SteveB. My son is just starting to hunt this year w/ traditional archery gear (he's never had a wheelie bow - woot!) but still prefers a rifle or shotgun for small game.
This evening, he hit a squirrel (shotgun) that fell down a hill out of sight, rolled and buried itself almost completely in leaves. He refused to stop looking for it, but finally ended up recovering it about 30 minutes after the kill. He just showed me the heart by the way - a pellet went through it.
Anyway, to me that level of respect for even small game, shows exactly the sort of hunting ethics I expect to see out of my boy. The tool he used has nothing to do with anything. His persistence, on the other hand - that displays (imo) great hunting ethics.
I think some of you guys who pass on small bucks have never hunted in a place where you may go an entire season and only get 5 deer within 20 yards. I'm not talking about a week long season either. I'm talking about hunting hard for 3 months, basically going hunting at least once a day. I am constantly amazed, after reading some of the posts on here, at the number of game animals that seem to populate other areas of our country. I spend around 20 hours on stand for every deer I see. Probably close to 40 hours for every one that comes within bow range.
I hunt deer. I don't differentiate between buck or doe, large or small. To me, it's the challenge of getting within 20 yards of a deer, any deer, and then being able to perform under pressure.
I have been hunting for 24 years. I have seen exactly 4 bucks from the stand that were large enough to mount. FOUR!!! Only two of the four came to within 20 yards. Depending on where you live, 2 of those 4 would possibly fall into the category of "small buck".
So for those of you who live in an area where deer are plentiful, GIVE THANKS! And the next time you watch that small buck walk away, just remember there are some who would be proud to take him.
Ritchie. Many of us..OK...me... don't count my success bu how many points a deer has. Sure, if two deer stand out there and one is huge and one isn't. well, guess which one I might take a shot at. But..... I would gladly shoot a small deer if that is my "gift " for the day.
I shot a button buck the other day. Granted, I thought it was a young doe, but I took it instead of the adult doe because it was in the wrong place at the wrong time and seconds from busting me. I had been hunting from the ground for the several trips prior and had been "aaaaalmost" to killing a deer each time. and each time, something happened.
I wanted some meat in the freezer and the opportunity presented. In southern Wisconsin, in my area, I can take an unlimited number of deer. I didn't burn up my only tag, which certainly had a play in this. Nope, not bragging about shooting that "baby buck". It was a stupid inquisitive youngster. Neither though am I embarrased for having done so. I eat meat and now have some meat in my freezer and more tags in my pocket.
You gotta understand...not everybody thinks alike. Some want only the trophy buck. To them waiting the whole season for one buck is the challenge. But..QDM is not the cure all that some people think it is. Some... just want to hunt...period.
ChuckC
Ah....continuing on. Ritchie. You are seeing one side of the story. I use a longbow, and make longbows, and arrows and quivers and other assorted gear, not because it is more difficult, or because it is currently cool, or to stand out. I do it because it is what I do. Shooting a longbow is fun and inspires me. I have a great time with it. Plus, I can succesfully hunt with it...well, sometimes anyway.
Why do you feel you need to limit yourself to a larger bull next time. Do you think people will look down at you ? Did you not thoroughly enjoy that fine meat you earned ? and that time in the mountains earning it ? Didn't that count at all ? Again. we think differently. That's all. You have your goals, I have mine. and its OK...
ChuckC
I have hunted with traditional bows and muzzleloaders since the early 70's. One thing I have to say is that those of us that hunt trad are more helpful and understanding of each other. More so than rifle or compound hunters towords new comers. We will take the time to help and share the knowledge we have, also the stories and traditions of our sport, be it archery or muzzleloading. This we most do or we will lose all the way around.
To me, a hunter who says, "Who am I to judge?" is saying they could care less about those who came before and those who will lead in the future. Ethics are created by those who participate. If you participate, you not only have every right to judge the actions of others, you are obligated to judge them. Just remember to judge yourself harder than you do the next guy. If you don't, someone else will, whether you want them to or not.
I've also noticed that longtime Trad guys, I mean guys who like me are afflicted with bowhunting t the point that we mmmmmiss birthdays, holidays,etc. Stay married a long time. And not just token marriages but reall loving committed relationships. That definately comes from values that we have that transcend from/to bowhunting. Jill and I have been married 32 years, Jerry Brumm, over 40 years, Ben Dodge, 30 something, Gene Wensel, mmmmm near 40 years as is Barry, Marty Mcmahon over 30 years. I don't think it's a coincidence.
Richie,
The taking of "baby bucks" as you call them is actually a good thing for the herd as far as genitics go. Any wildlife biologist will tell you that if you want to improve the bucks in your herd kill off the spikes cause they will not contribute to a good gene pool, nothing wrong with it. Any deer with a bow taken cleanly is something to be proud of. JMHO.
Danny
Chuck....I am heading out to the woods now but had a thought as I read the last posts. Another thing that comes into play here is competetion. I am very competetive. Not showing others with what I harvest but wanting to harvest the best. With the elk, I want to harvest the biggest out there, the herd bull. I didn't know that at the time but I have learned more now and that is my goal. A young bull will not satisfy me. I want the daddy bull. It is kind of like sports. I had a several full scholarships to play baseball at small colleges. I didn't want that I wanted to know what I cold do at a Division I school so I played football at Auburn. Now I know I could play at the top level.
That is how I think. I also realize everyone else doesn't have to think that way to be right.
Ethics is a way of the mind. You set your to a level that might be higher then others, Nothing wrong with that. I do beleave that Trad hunters do show more respect to others then compound/firearm hunters do. Another site I go to ( mostly wheelie & firearm hunters, would rag on ppl that take Button bucks, shoot more then 2 DOEs in a season or don't have the newer hunting toys.
I switched to a Trad Bow, because of the respect for the Game I hunt, & to be in the Zen of the flight of the Arrow. Not to be to corny....I do agree with lots of the other posters from here on this, That We as Trad Archers like the way things where.... Our Tradition is something we need, more then the how many we kill.
I just love to be out in the woods, watching deer, tree rats & the birds doing what they do. I hunt for Meat for my Family & friends that need help. Killing is a perk, nothing more ( in my book )if you need to kill more things... GET A GUN, If You need peace of mind... GET A TRAD BOW.
Danny,
The statements you made about baby bucks and genetics could not be farther from the truth. Only since you brought it up, I am a wildlife biologist and consultant and know without a doubt that genetics is the last thing to worry about in a deer herd. Older bucks with a nice set of antlers were all young one day with small antlers. That is called an uneducated baby buck. That is what I have been referring to in this post.
I gotta agree on the marriage issue with Biggie, I am only 42 and been with the same girl 25 years and married going on 22 years. I just find it hard to judge others and what is ethical, there are things that are obvious, but others are borderline, hunting over bait, road hunting, lighted sights and hunting hogs at night, where legal I do not have a problem with them, but I know tons of people who wold say they are not ethical. Who am I to judge what others feel good about. Please do not think I disagree with what ethiocs stand for but or some it is a fine line and others it is pretty broad! Shawn
I understand what you're saying Shawn. But...You don't strike me as the type of person who would put up with a bunch of nonsense. I would venture to say that if you knew someone who was wounding deer taking 40 yard shots with 20 yard skills it wouldn't take you too long to have a sit down with them.
Those things you mention are more regional ethics than hunter ethics. I think the problems you see in judging others come from individuals who do not know the difference between hunter ethics, regional ethics, and personal choice.
I think I understand Mr. Nell. I also think you by your example with the elk represtented what a lot of the "Baby buck" shooters did. I would be surprised if the majority of those folks would take that same shot if it presented itself the next time out If we want to have bigger bucks we have to pass on the younger smaller ones. But I find myself asking why? Is it for the prestige? or the big "bucks"$$$? that will bring in the high dollar out-of-state hunters??
I ramble too much!!
Good hunting!
God bless,Mudd
ps ethics and legal can be the same thing but not always.
As I read the discussion being carried on here I see the point originally made by Maddog. The very fact that an intelligent disagreement with both sides sharing and listening (reading) and being so dedicated shows the caliber of folks visiting this site regularly. Well done Maddog for starting this thread!
I have to agree with Wulamoc. I've seen a lot of these discussions on others sites, and they usually go down the tubes pretty fast.
On another note, I'm not sure where the idea that a recurve or longbow automatically makes one more ethical or dedicated came from, but I haven't seen it myself. I've had the pleasure of hunting with a lot of geat folks over the years. Some of them used trad bows and others chose compounds or even firearms.
In contrast, there are a number of people I choose not to walk a trail with again. A lot of them carried stickbows. I was on a hunt out west a few years ago where a guy with a maximum 15-yard effective range (and that's being generous) took a Hail Mary 40-yard shot on a bull, wounded it and then didn't have any real desire to follow up the trail. He hunted with a recurve, by the way.
I could post a laundry list of other things I've personally seen over the years, including trespassing and hunting in no hunting areas of state parks. I even once had some traditional bowhunters intentionally drive deer out of an area they knew I was hunting. Why? I have no idea.
Now, obviously these folks are in the minority. But it doesn't serve us well to blindly think a fellow hunter is ethical just because they can unstring their bow at the end of the day.
These days I tend to choose my hunting companions very well. And I can assure you, whether or not they have wheels on the ends of their bow limbs doesn't come into play.
out here in washington if you only killed the monster bull elk you would be violating game laws unless you were lucky enough to have drawn a special permit. it's spikes only for the rest of us, except that cows are generally legal in bow season.
personally i only hunt does when they are legal. they eat better for me. i hunt cow elk for the same reason.
i find it hard to relate the size of horns on an animal to the hunters personal ethics. i also think that even biologists should be cautious in making blank statements to an audience that covers 50 states. conditions are very different in some of the western states than some or most of the southern and eastern states, as are the laws.
larry hatfield
Personaly, I find competitive hunting attitudes revolting.
If that is your motivation, I would prefer you take up golf, Richie.
That, of course, is my not so humble opinion. :saywhat:
Larry H.... In previous posts I was referring to whitetail deer. All deer are first young with small antlers and then older with large antlers. This happens in every state that has deer. I know nothing about managing an elk herd but I have a good idea why they outlaw the harvest of spike bulls in Durango, CO. Don't you?
Also I have not said anything about ethics relating to antler size. It has nothing to do with it unless it is illegal.
Ethics is deciding whether to cross a property line after a gobbler.
Ethics is deciding whether to go ahead and shoot 14 doves when 12 is the legal limit.
Bad ethics is illegally hunting over bait because all the other members are doing it and the game warden is in the north part of the county anyway.
Bad ethics is killing a double limit of mallards when your buddy is with you but killing none.
Bad ethics is killing a deer, cutting out the backstraps and leaving the rest.
Good ethics is making what you think is a lethal shot on a bull elk, not finding the animal but filling your tag anyway.
Good ethics is taking responsibility for your deer dogs when they get on someone else land without permission.
Again, I have said or implied nothing about shooting baby bucks was unethical or morally wrong. I have only said that it surprises me that the "traditional bow" type hunter still gets satisfaction from taking a baby buck. And that is from experienced hunters doing that. That is surprising to me.
Flesner...I agree with you that competitive hunting is revolting. If you are suggesting I am a competitive hunter you need to read the posts again. As I have said I am very competitive but have never harvested a buck with my bow. I am challanged by myself not anyone else.
Also I do play golf some but would rather play baseball, which I do now.
Molson, I do believe i am very ethical, but some may not. Ya see what I mean, regional or not. I know what is right and wrong but again what is ethical and not, I have my thoughts but so do others. I think Biggie and i would really like each other as we are very much alike and I have the utmost respect for him. I just find it tough to make such a broad statement as the one that started this thread. Weapon of choice does and should not matter in these discussions. Shawn
I am appreciative of your comments. I think we all, me anyway, get to be better people/hunters by bouncing off thoughts and ideas on a quality subject as this.
Well, Richie, I know some wildlife bilogists in Texas that would strongly disagree with you about spikes.
Danny
Danny....I have done the research.
But that is Ok...no problem
I agree that weapon choice has little to do with ethical behavior, but I think the statement starting this thread is generally true. Not because of weapon choice, but because those who are drawn to traditional archery (and stick with it) tend to devote more of themselves to the journey, rather than the destination.
I believe it is important to remind those who participate, in any form of hunting, that we as a group, and as individuals, have high expectations of them. Debate over what is and isn't ethical or what should or shouldn't be legal, is a necessary part of the education/preservation process.
As someone mentioned earlier, ethical and legal are not always the same. Many laws are created as a result of some greasy politician taking a bribe from a special interest whose concern for wildlife travels no further than the dollar in their pocket.
Amen, Molson!
Weapon choice has little to do with ethics. My experiences are similar to Jason's and come across some stickbow shooters I'd prefer not to share the same lot of woods with.
As for the baby buck comments, here in CT good management is taking whatever comes within range. Populations in many parts of the state are triple what the land can support and hunter numbers still decreasing. Take a walk through the woods and you can see what overpopulation will do to an area.
Quote it surprises me that the "traditional bow" type hunter still gets satisfaction from taking a baby buck.
If you want real 'satisfaction' go after the mature does. There's something about that statement that really rubs me the wrong way, and I'll just leave it at that.
Jeremy..I agree..Your are correct when referring to situations on the east coast when populations are to the extreme.
But I am still surprised... That the Traditional type hunter is satisfied by taking a young buck.
I have worked with, hunted with, trailed deer with hunters from all over the world.
It is my fault for expecting too much from a group of hunters that I respect the most.
I think its kinda conceited of you to expect others to live up to your self imposed standards. Like you got the market cornered on choosing the "right " deer to shoot or something.
I just got back from watching a little spike buck from the cover of the fence row behind the barn, saw four does after he melted into the woods. One doe was obviously the matriarch of the group, much larger and seemed to be much more cautious.
I'd have shot any one of the does, but probably not the spike. Thats a standard that I've placed on myself.My brother and I have been passing up young uns for years now and see the benefits that come from letting them grow. Now I have two fellers that hunt here that haven't taken a deer with traditional archery equipment yet and they have free choice as to what they shoot. I tell them to take the first deer that gives them a good shot because that may be the only one they get. One of the two has missed twice already, over the back of the same doe.
Starting folks out with a good buck or nothing rule is a good way to make them discouraged and set 'em up for disappointment.
No disrespect meant to you sir but I can't help but feel as though by posting this thread you are trying to build yourself up for some reason.
That being said if your self imposed standards work for you thats great but don't forget they are SELF imposed.
Good hunting.
Why is it that when meeting new hunters and they find out I shoot a longbow they assume I'm an elitist snob? Why is that such a prevalent stereotype? Are there enough of us trad type hunters with that attitude to perpetuate the stereotype?
Let me make it clear I'm not attacking anyone in the above post. I just thought it might be time to ask the darker question. The initial 'group hug' question was nice and all, but we moved beyond that on page 2 :)
:campfire:
Again, It is my fault that I personally expected for the "traditional type" experienced hunter would still be satisfied with taking a young buck rather than, a) Allowing him to mature into an older mature buck and b) not taking a doe instead if given the choice.
I am in no way trying to change your mind. I am just speaking my mind in hopefully a respectful manner.
No problem to the ones that dissagree with me. I am just saying it is my fault, mine alone, for expecting more from the group of hunters I respect the most and the same group of hunters that I personally have put on a pedestal.
Whoops!
The conversing is appreciated.
I think this thread has passed into something entirely different from it's original intention and it's time has passed. Thanks to all who posted.