Hello fellas, just some off-season fat to chew on here.
I shoot a #42 Omega Imperial mainly, and was wondering about a switch to woodsman heads? I have absolutely nothing but the up-most confidence in my set up, and will not hesitate one anything with it, but i have always used 2 blade heads. This past December, i had a bit of trouble with blood trails and pigs.
BUT, after two frustrating blood trails i am pondering on switching to the woodsmans but i was wondering your thoughts? I know i wouldnt have any trouble with deer and woodsmans but i have at least two more pig trips in the next few months with a decent chance of runnning into a good sized pig, and i would rather not shoot a pig and it turn around and laugh at me.
So again, i am not questioning the weight, i am convinced i never need more poundage unless i go after elk, just questioning a switch to a 3blade, specifically the Woodsman.
What say ye? Can i make the switch?
Dalton
Dalton, I shoot the same poundage as you and hunted all fall with the 175 gr VPA 3 blade(very woodsman like) and was very happy with them on critters and the blood trails that went with it. I also killed a big doe with a big ol Snuffer and after seeing the penetration and damage/blood trail Im not to worried about penetration any more ;) I'm heading down to see Irv next week and am hunting with the 3 blade VPA if that tells you anything......
big hogs with shields are much like elk to penetrate ....nothing like a deer. yes....there is a soft spot on them but is a small target and a lot of the goodies are behind the shield.
have u seen the shield clip on the shot placement for hogs thread?
most hogs don't have shields to that degree but you might happen upon one.
what is your draw length and arrow weight?
I have saw that thread Terry, and have saw a #240 boar with one like it firsthand in TX, that shield is exactly what concerns me. I know on a sow or a smaller pig i would be fine, but like you said i might happen on one like that.
I actually draw 29" (the bow is 40@28) I have weighed it at the shop and it is 42.2 at 29, and my arrow weight is right around 525-550gr.
well.....if you use a quiver that let's you change arrows easy you could take both and use according to need
...
Great idea, thanks for the help, i know you are the king of swine around here!
Are you saying you're making two holes in the critters and not getting good blood trails? Then a three blade will likely give you a better blood trail, if you can push it all the way through the critter.
On the other hand, if you're not pushing the two-blades all the way through the critter, the chances of doing so with a three blade are even less. If that's the situation, your upmost confidence in 42# on pigs, particularly good size pigs, may be misplaced.
At most stick bow ranges, say 25 yards and in...I think you are good. I have shot deer with a 3 blade vpa and woodsman 45lb 27" draw and got 2 holes everytime. I stick with 500+ grain arrows too. Hogs im not so sure about because I just dont hunt em enough.
Yes sir, the 31.75" arrow buried to the label on a broadside shot, i cant see any way there wasn't two holes. Didn't find the pig to prove it however, just going by what i saw at the shot.
Yes the blood is what i am looking for, honestly i am leaning toward putting on a string tracker as well, just because of the December debacle. Idk what it is about pigs, but i have never had one bleed much, which is why i am thinking another blade will help.
If you are wanting better blood on the ground, a Simmons head or 3 blade like the woodsman should help, within reason. Big hogs are pretty variable, and I have had hogs that were well hit put buckets of blood on the ground, and others barely a trickle. A string tracker isn't a bad idea, and I have considered it myself. Hopefully others will be able to chime in on their experience with a setup like yours with woodsman heads. From all I have read, it probably won't be that much difference in penetration from a two blade unless you hit bone, in which case you are in trouble anyway. I am glad that you have great confidence in your setup. I would echo Terry's sentiments, in that a heavily shielded hog is general considered to be tougher to penetrate than an elk.
Terry has a good idea with carrying both heads in your quiver. I've experienced the same results with pigs.
A couple of years ago I hunted on a friends place in south texas. He'd been running a bow only pig outfit for over 10 years. When he saw I was shooting two blade heads he told me about his study. Over the years he kept records on recoveries and loses. He said that with a 3 blade he had over a 50% better chance of recovering a pig then with a 2 blade. That was enough for me and I switched to WW for pigs.
Mike
I take advantage of that also, I usually have two different two blades and one 3 blade and then a blunt or judo.
yep... I do it in the winter time when I'm deer hunting ....I usually drop down about seven pounds in weight in the colder months and I still take tDelta 4 blades but if I'm in hog territory also I have a couple of Wensel woodsmans or no mercy 4 blades in my quiver just in case I run into a bruiser hog
Hi Dalton, you definitely had my attention there for a second....thought you were implying that some of that Smokies "free range Russian" stock had migrated into the Promised Land, lol! I was like..I'm in!
Tradgang never ceases to amaze me, Blaino is going to send me a sample of some of the WW originals to try on some pigs, he wont let me pay him either. Thanks again Blaino! Folks like him make this place special! Il be sure to pass the amazing generocity along.
QuoteOriginally posted by huskyarcher:
Tradgang never ceases to amaze me, Blaino is going to send me a sample of some of the WW originals to try on some pigs, he wont let me pay him either. Thanks again Blaino! Folks like him make this place special! Il be sure to pass the amazing generocity along.
:thumbsup: :campfire:
I will also say this...on have seen the wensel woodsmans out penetrate SOME 2 blades in 3 different target mediums.
I'm sure you're probably aware of this, but I think you'd definitely want to turn the WW needle tip into a chisel for hogs. Simple to do on a file while truing up the edges. WW's were my head of choice before I went back to 2-blades.
Dalton,
I have a lot of guys who hunt with me that use the Woodsman head,or similar to it, including the Langer group. But most of these guys are shooting 60# bows too.
I'm not an expert but after attending the Compton seminars put on by Dr. Ed Ashby, I upped my arrow weight to 570 grains including head also using a 100 grain brass insert so most of that weight is out front.
I use the single bevel Grizzlys from Bill Dunn, which are 165 grains including the adapter for carbons, and believe a lot in the studies done by Ashby about heavy weight up front.
I use 53#-55# bows at 28" bows...and my draw length is 27",so I am right around 50-53#s at my draw.
There are other single bevel 2 blade heads on the market, but Bill's are the most economical and I have found them to be pretty tough. Get a KME and they sharpen best.
Bill makes a wider size head than the one I use which would make a bigger hole, and you are right about hogs not bleeding well, so two holes...one near the bottom of the animal is really good if you can make it happen.
I personally witnessed Bill Langer anchoring a 300# plus hog this week, his biggest to date, on one of my hunt sites, and he likes to hit them a little higher near the entrance, quartering away, and have the broadhead exit near the offside shoulder passing thru all the vitals he can, but leaving an "out hole" lower so the blood can drain out as the animal runs away.
This type of hit, angling slightly (not sharply) down gives you a blood drain hole and sort of comes naturally because you are at least 10 feet higher than your target.
I'm not advocating shooting straight down at the critter or anything close to that...just slightly down.
Even on a deer, or other critters, a broadside double lung hit,(esp.a high high double lung hit) will require the diaphram area to fill with blood before it starts leaking, so in talking with Bill, his method seems to make a lot of sense. sense.
You know him well...so give him a call to make sure I have all those details correct.
He made the exact same hit on another smaller pig this week too.
I think some good heads for a lite weight set up would be a big wide Simmons Treeshark or a big Grizzly single bevel two blade.
Read Ashby's report about how a single bevel will tend to split bone and what he thinks about the advantage of a single bevel two blade.
It's a lot of technical reading but it is backed up by a lot of testing thru animal hides into animal bones...pretty realistic. I know a lot of folks put a lot of weight into what his studies have found.
And...you are a young, strong guy...
If you draw with back tension, and use your rhomboids, you should be able to pull more than 42#s should you desire.
Not telling you what to do here, as once again, I do not want to come off as an expert, just offering some insight on what I have seen.
Call Langer and see what he thinks.
I also have a lot of faith in what Terry Green is saying...he has killed a bunch of hogs as well.
Some guys have had really good luck with three blade heads, and it sure makes sense to carry both.
Best Regards,
Irv
Irv
These are pics from a buck I killed years ago. I was shooting a 47@27 longbow and was in a bind and probably pulled the bow to 25-26 ". Arrow weighed around 500 grains. Original woodsman I got from Biggie Hoffman.
If you get up around the shoulder of a Big pig you are in trouble unless you are shooting heavy arrows and some lbs. If you shoot low poundage like me you learn to get close and shoot in the pocket or a little back in the middle. Woodsmans are fine heads but with that said I have never seen a double lunged pig of any size go more than 75 yards with any head. I prefer a two blade on big hogs. RC
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/IMG_1247.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/rcswampbucket/media/IMG_1247.jpg.html)
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w39/rcswampbucket/IMG_1244.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/rcswampbucket/media/IMG_1244.jpg.html)
It is somewhat of a luxury to have more than one bow to choose from. If I run into this joker, I would probably rather have one of my more energetic bows with me. That way it won't matter as much which broadhead I chose.
(http://i.imgur.com/z9DVNN9.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/jip94Kc.jpg)
I shot this 200# boar last spring with a snuffer using silvertip drawn to around 57# @ 29.5". (It may look a little bit smaller, but it has already been gutted in the pic). Perfect heart shot, great bloodtrail (very short, too) but I didn't get two holes, even though this hog didn't have much of a shield. The offside leg stymies me on big boars, as often as not,unless I am using my buff setup. In this case, it the offside, and slid out a little bit, and the broadhead was just poking through the heart when I gutted it. Can't argue with the results, though.
(http://i.imgur.com/yl88Xfa.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/pDlC3oM.jpg)
This was another one that was heart shot, this time with a VPA, same bow, and no exit hole. Another short bloodtrail, although the shield was a little better on this one.
(http://i.imgur.com/iWk5uRE.jpg)
Actually I have way more examples of big hogs that I have shot that I only have one hole, than the other way around. I would prefer that hole to be big, lol.
Some other examples of hogs with no exit hole:
220# boar shot slightly quartering away 63# @ 29" thunderchild,magnus 1 broadhead. Heart shot. Broadhead stopped on offside shoulder
(http://i.imgur.com/kIO4pfo.jpg)
270# boar, same silvertip as above, steeply quartering. Tigershark broadhead. Broadhead stopped in chest cavity.
(http://i.imgur.com/T4q38WT.jpg)
250# sow, steeply quartering away, thunderchild, around 54# @ 29", tigershark broadhead. Broadhead stopped in chest cavity.
(http://i.imgur.com/Dt7NxVd.jpg)
400# boar broadside. 54#@29" thunderchild with tigershark broadhead. Maybe 8 or 9" penetration..
(http://i.imgur.com/NCzVivC.jpg)
Just last year....Switched from a two blade to a three blade VPA tipped arrow as a group of sandwhich piggies were making there way in. The outcome was most successful.
Wow, awesome pics PDK! I'm thinking i will just keep a two blade in the quiver just in case of a true giant.
I talked to Bill, Irv, Dick shoots a 40# Widow, and woodsmans and he says they do great for him so i think i will give it a try.
Thanks for all the help fellas!
Dalton
I am no expert, but I have read the experts work on the matter. I have also done a lot of testing. Over the last 10 years I have been lowering my draw weight and focusing on other factors to get arrow penetration.
*. Perfectly tuned arrow
*. Edge- Hair Popping Sharp- I can't get 3 blades this sharp.
*. Mechanical advantage- Think Howard Hill and his 3:1 ratio rule. Heads that don't have steep or abrupt angles are better.
*. Weight- I shoot a light arrow with a heavy head. I want the weight up front. This increases FOC and spine. This prevents deflection on impact thus improving penetration signficiantly. Each weight of draw has its own optimal overall arrow weight. Rule of thumb 10 to 12 grains per lb of pull is very accurate.
Your question is focused on 2- Mechanical advantage. 2 blade broad heads that are similar to a 3 blade regarding 3:1 will out perform the 3 blade. Ashby's studies show that more blades don't give you more blood. Its penetration and placement that gets you the harvest.
The best fit for this criteria is the Grizzly, STOS, Zwickey, Eclipse Broadhead. Grizzly is my current pick- It has a low tapered ferrule "lots of 2 blades don't". It has a decent length vs width ratio. It has linear angles, no curves or flare outs. I am not 100% sold on single bevel vs double. I know they both need to be hair popping sharp.
The trick when comparing 3 blade vs 2 is the ferrule. 3 blades usually have good 3:1 ratio most 2 blades do not. Given both 3 and 2 have similar 3:1 ratio a 2 blade that has a low tapered ferrule will have advantage. A two blade that has a steep or abrupt ferrule does not have advantage over the 3 blade.
To feel the significance of Mechanical Advantage.
Ensure all BH are sharp
Use the same arrow diameter
Equip your 3 blade broad head of choice to an arrow.
Place the nock of that arrow in the tender portion of your palm.
Push the arrow through a cardboard box or thick leather.
Perform the same test with a Stinger- 2 blade high ferrule
You will feel the resistance.
Perform the same test with a Grizzly- 2 blade low tapering ferrule.
Like butter
To your question yes you can use them. There are better choices to be made.
Husky....if you have a problem getting those wensels hair popping sharp just let me know
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/tgbuff2.jpg)
And "more blades don't give more blood" goes against physics all things being equal. Slice your finger with your knife once.....then do it again and you get more blood...and do it again this and you get even more. the more slices you make the more blood you are going to get flow.....you can't cut more and bleeding less.
Not trying to start and argument just don't agree at all. ....and not only my experiences on countless tracking jobs,but others I know that have also been on countless tracking jobs....held leases for years. ..outfitted for years etc.
Terry,
I struggle with getting 3 blades hair splitting sharp. Can you share your method? Do you have any pics of a 3 blade splitting a hair? My inability to get three blades where I need them has prevented a lot testing.
with wensels I put them on a belt sander 2 blades at a time for about a second and a half and rotate. ...then do another her address or two and start over...this makes sure I don't overheat the head....and gets all the bevels level....
then I use a 3 sided jewel stick starting with medium grit....2 blades at a time drawing from front to back twice now rotate about 6 times....not a lot of pressure....then drag once and rotate about 10 times with hardly any pressure.
I don't have a pic ...at airport at the moment...I'll see what I can do next week.
other heads have more level bevels and may not need belt sander....I'll try to post a pic of the instinct as well
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
with wensels I put them on a belt sander 2 blades at a time for about a second and a half and rotate. ...then do another her address or two and start over...this makes sure I don't overheat the head....and gets all the bevels level....
then I use a 3 sided jewel stick starting with medium grit....2 blades at a time drawing from front to back twice now rotate about 6 times....not a lot of pressure....then drag once and rotate about 10 times with hardly any pressure.
I don't have a pic ...at airport at the moment...I'll see what I can do next week.
other heads have more level bevels and may not need belt sander....I'll try to post a pic of the instinct as well
Terry,
What grit on the belt sander? Is it a 1" sander or 4".
I'll order a jewel stick and give it a run. I have attempted several methods and can't seem to get there.
sorry. Double post
Dalton,
I've killed a few hogs with trad tackle and, in my limited experience, they go down pretty quick when well hit...Their vitals are located a little differently than whitetails - which you probably know - but keep that in mind when evaluating hits and recovery success.
I remember the first hog I shot, and the only one I ever shot from a tree stand, I shot at close range with a Woodsman. Arrow went in kinda high and came out low and tight to the front leg...You would have thought he would have gushed blood with a hit like that but I did not see any obvious blood sign where he had run. But then again he only went about 25 yards and down within sight so it didn't matter lol.....
I'll order a jewel stick and give it a run. I have attempted several methods and can't seem to get there.
TaterHill, should be at least a couple inches wide, the WW is 1" point to point at the back of the head.
I've done it on a 80-100 grit belt, but it was well worn, which is good cause your not wanting remove much metal just make the 2 edges a flat plane.
I just hold the head by one blade and set it down on the belt with the point in the direction of the belt travel.
4 inch....don't know the grit....been using it for years but I'll check
There was a similar thread recently about 3 to 1 ratio heads.
As you know, I'm a big believer in low profile three blade heads like Woodsmans and VPA's, there are some others that I haven't tried yet.
Since I'm generally the guy tracking the pig to all hours(my own and others')through awful stuff I'm always happy to see three blade heads in guys' quivers. If it will give me ONE more drop of blood that's enough reason for me to use it and recommend it. After several hundred pig blood trails(and a lot of deer) I'm a firm believer in three blade heads.
By the way, two years ago, Bill Langer's son Ben killed three pigs with three shots using Woodsman Elites. He was 11 or 12 at the time and drawing under 40#, closer to 30 probably.(smaller hogs).
Like Terry said, it couldn't hurt to carry one Tusker for a really big boy, though. You sure put the hurt on deer with those:)
(I need to start keeping stats on the broadheads people use)
I get the Woodsmans and Snuffers hair popping sharp with a file and diamond hone(quickly too).
I do have issues with some other heads but I find three blade heads very easy because the angle is already there (and easily maintained).
The only easier head is a Magnus with an Accusharp tool. I've killed quite a few pigs with that head,too.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
well.....if you use a quiver that let's you change arrows easy you could take both and use according to need
That is exactly what I do, except I use 1 1/8" wide heads on tough stuff, and 1 1/2" wide heads on smaller stuff. Both 2 blades though.
Bisch
"Huskyarcher" What arrow set up are you using to get that kind of weight?. I have same bow and same specs as you, have been trying to increase weight. Thanks