Trad Gang

I'm really curious about this. I did a search but couldn't find anything.

Draw weights for men averaged 55#-60# 12 years or so ago. A woman's bow was in the low to mid 40#s. In looking at the classifieds I see a lot of guys selling bows that they feel are too heavy for them that were average draw weights not long ago.

Is it age and injuries? Are we practicing less and so having to shoot lighter bows to remain consistent?

I'm not holding myself up as some sort of standard, but at 64 I'm still shooting mid to high fifties,the draw weights I've always shot, and higher with selfbows. I shoot everyday, but only about 50 to 75 arrows.

Any insights would be appreciated. Out of the nearly 45,000 members of TG there have to be some members with insights into this phenomenon.

Contrary to the thoughts that you have posted (not trying to be snotty, here), what about just learning that it's not necessary to have a 60# draw weight to push an arrow through the vast majority of game animals in the U.S.?  

homebru

One reason that doesn't relate to the shooter is that bow performance has increased over the years, so that it is not necessary to shoot the same poundage to get the same performance.  Actually, I'm not sure performance has changed that much over the last 12 years, so much as people 12 years ago were still applying the standards that people were using many years before that.  I think people are now realizing they don't need the same poundage people used to use to get the job done.

As people get older (I'm 71), most of us drop down in poundage.  I started shooting a 65# bow in the '80's, and am now using a 50# bow to hunt and a 40# bow to shoot 3D.  I'm fortunate that I haven't had any significant shoulder problems, and I want to keep it that way.  Maybe shooting a lower poundage helps.

I can't shoot the big weight any longer.  However I still shoot 52# even though many use less for deer.
I am of the opinion that even if 40# work, 50# works better so long as you shoot it accurately.
The heavier poundage does take more practice for most of us, but I find shooting to be fum

Most of the young bucks are shooting compounds and the old trad hunters need to go down in wgt.I shot 60lb.in my younger days and now comfortable with 49/50 today.

Old age for some (me)

For me I actually think it was reading posts on this site that pushed my poundage down haha....I started in the mid 60s and am now in the low 50s....but after years of my own experiences my next bow will be in the mid 60s again...I'm 33 and the weight isn't really a problem and despite the overwhelming reports of low weight bows working I've found myself several times over the past few seasons wishing for more draw weight after a couple of instances of marginal to just "ok" penetration on game.

McDave always gets it right!

There are a host of discerning, justifiable and plausible contributors including marketing.

***The complete arrow design enhancements are a significant factor.

Just an FYI...There may be some Trad Gang members with accurate history of the 60's that may be able to verify that the vast majority of bows sold by Bear Archery were 45@28.

I think everyone is nailing it back then bows where just not what they are today different materials and a slightly different limb designs equal better performance after all if this wasn't true we'd all be shooting the same bow because the bows from the days of old would be as good as it could get and again this is just my opinion but we all know this isn't true progress drives humanity where constantly striving to do more with less and if my 42 pound bow can sling a arrow like a 55 pound bow then I'll grab it every time over higher poundage I personally switched to a trad bow because I like shooting it more than a compound that being said lower poundage lets me shoot longer  I started out with a 55 # longbow then to a 45# recurve back up to a 56# longbow and this is the gods honest truth my 42# widow out performs the other bows I've personally had that's why I shoot a lower poundage and before I get pulled over hot coals I'm not saying widows are surpiorer I'm just saying it outperformed everything I've personally owned

QuoteOriginally posted by Friend:
There are a host of discerning, justifiable and plausible contributors including marketing.

***The complete arrow design enhancements are a significant factor.

Just an FYI...There may be some Trad Gang members with accurate history of the 60's that may be able to verify that the vast majority of bows sold by Bear Archery were 45@28.

That's an interesting point, and based on the Bear bows I've seen from that era you're right.

QuoteOriginally posted by McDave:
One reason that doesn't relate to the shooter is that bow performance has increased over the years, so that it is not necessary to shoot the same poundage to get the same performance.  Actually, I'm not sure performance has changed that much over the last 12 years, so much as people 12 years ago were still applying the standards that people were using many years before that.  I think people are now realizing they don't need the same poundage people used to use to get the job done.

As people get older (I'm 71), most of us drop down in poundage.  I started shooting a 65# bow in the '80's, and am now using a 50# bow to hunt and a 40# bow to shoot 3D.  I'm fortunate that I haven't had any significant shoulder problems, and I want to keep it that way.  Maybe shooting a lower poundage helps.

True enough. There are some very high performance bows available these days, Like the Javaman Elkhart as one example. In combination with a carbon arrow I can understand a lighter, high performance bow being an option.

Great responses so far. Thanks everyone.

I know I've been shooting a 55# bow which I handle just fine, but during my trip to Black Widow the other day I realized that I enjoyed the 50# bows much more, and they were performing as well as my current 55# setup of a different make.

For a beginner a lighter draw bow helps them to learn good form.
For us older guys, a lighter weight bow helps us to be able to keep shooting despite the worn  and  damaged parts that we tend to have to endure...   :(

Maybe we have been sissyfied.LOL. Seriously, it has been the same way with compounds as well. The most popular draw weight for them now is 60# to 65# . The power they generate today at 60# is equivalent to 70# 15 years ago.

Most trad shooters I have met are 50+ years old.  Most of the young people like myself shoot compounds or target recurve.

I started with 45#, worked up to 65#, then back down again. It took me 25 years to do it.

My neck, shoulders, back, and elbows thank me every day!

I will dive into this as a young(er) buck in some instances... Or at least I want to keep tellignmyself I am.  The reason the weight is down on average... We are weak!  As a general populous it is pathetic.  Watching kids trickle into the Army over the sat two decades, it is pathetic to see what "strength" is.  
As a 230lbs dude, roll into the field of battle scared that if you go down, nobody is dragging you out alive.... They just can't.  
When I ptr on 100lbs of gear I can look around and find one or two cats that could move me if needed.

Just the basic: push-up, sit-up, 2-mile run is a life changing event for most... Hand them a dumbbell, not to mention a rucksack, and forget about it.  I've watched them try and swing sledge hammers, dig holes.... Hell, change a tire. It's amazing!
This country is doomed I tell you!

But hey, give them a cellphone or an Xbox and they can be anything you want them to be online... Car thiefs, gangsters, Special Forces super stars... They know everything there is to know about doing anything that requires zero exertion or use of muscle groups outside of their thumbs.

Ahhh deep breath.

Yeah, so as Men fade away and digitalis rise into the mainstream.... Draw weights are going to drop to equal one another. Joints fade, shoulders don't hold up, those years of physical labor and abuse of our bodies will put all the us on a level playing field with a bunch of kids that never broke a sweat in their lives. I understand that there will be quite a few exceptions to the rule, kids that were raised right, in the woods, on farms, or God willing found themselves with that friend, grandfather, stepfather... Or even mother sister or whatever in their lives that  raised them up right.

It's just sad.... They drink PBR because it's trendy, not because it's Union. Their skinny jeans, aren't wranglers or 501s.  Flannel shirts that are made of worthless material, "dang barbwire tatto doesn't even go all the way around"

It's just an absolutely weeker generation than I would have ever dreamed possible.  Smarter than crap, absolutely willing to work their butt off not to work at all...

Ya know, I'm sure every generation has said the same of their predecessors.  I'm sure I am weaker than my fathers generation, and he weaker than his.... Wonder what my grandfather said sitting around the campfire.  I remember when I was 10 or 12 I finally got to talk to my grandfather about bows, he use to talk about his bows, I was proud of my 35# Black Bear... But it certainly wasn't the 110# or 175# Hill bows he was shooting. Don't know if that type of raw manliness will ever be common place again. If I walk into a decent deal on. 100# Hill I will buy it just to try and be part the man he was.

Wow... That sparked one hell of a rant I guess.  I'll leave it and let the world enjoy.  Little frustration with the younger troopers these days I suppose. Really hard to build them up to where you want them, thinks it's called a l"eadership challenge"

Retirement will be amazing!

The "desire" to shoot high poundage bows has dropped over the 12 years.  There is an "aging traditional majority" of folks in the game. It takes a lot of effort to maintain strength with age.  Most choose to lower weight for enjoyment.  I would love to play Rugby again after 18 years of playing the sport but drinking beer and watching seems more realistic at 60 years old. Same with Archery.  But I still try and push the envelope.  Still believe a deer deserves a good drag out of the woods, screw the 4 wheeler!

mbugland, I am an old fart and I see exactly what you are describing and unfortunately it is true. When I worked we used to brag about how much our crew could do in a day, as I retired it was youngsters complaining because on other jobs they weren't expected to work that hard.

I started with a 75# Asbell Bighorn, that was 26 years ago. At the time I was a strapping young buck of 22 years old. I gradually decreased my weight to where I'm at now at 48 years old. Now my bows range from 58#s to 52#s.

My age, arthritis in my shoulders, and the fact that i just don't need that heavy of a bow were all factors in dropping weight.

All the aches and pains of getting older.....now 40-45#'s just seems to work for me. Dropping down in poundage also helped me cure most of my target panic......it never all goes away.

We are not all built alike. Some guys seem to be like the engeryizer bunny at 70 while others can not even get off the chair. i call it "bad code". I look at how many of my school classmates are dead already from cancer and heart trouble.
I still shoot 55#-60# bows at 70 years old. I do have lighter limbs, 45# but just can not shoot them as well. I know I will have to succumb but I am putting it off. Oh, by the way, arthritis in my hands has caused me to stop shooting my ASL.
When I sold it I felt some what defeated by old age.

In the 1950's there were more young people getting into the sport and hunting. Gradually the average age got older. Just look at the demographics for the USA.

I doubt bows are more efficient, or faster. However many found, lighter strings, lighter arrows with higher FOC, aluminum, graphite/carbon arrows and better broadhead made a difference.  Arrow flight is a big factor with near center shot bows, and finally many realized that being over-bowed was not fun.

A number of bows in 1955 and later were capable of shooting wood arrows 190 to 200 fps. Longbows with glass were more efficient than some of the early self bows, and the popularity of Hybrids, and reflex-deflex design in the 1980's made a big difference to some.

There are many that still shoot heavier weights. However, most that do keep to themselves and don't talk about it much because every time they do they are ridiculed. Shoot with and hunt with what you are comfortable with, accurate with and is fun to you. It has been said that you owe it to the game you pursue to use the heaviest bow you can shoot EFFECTIVELY. I agree with that, contrary to what some will say there is no such thing as too much penetration. Shoot enough animals and there will come a time you are either happier that you had additional penetration or you will wish that you did.

I agree with LoneWolf73.  When he mentions the "aging traditional majority".  More oldsters than youngsters shooting traditional.  And most of us did shoot the heavier poundage in years past.

QuoteOriginally posted by mbugland:
I will dive into this as a young(er) buck in some instances... Or at least I want to keep tellignmyself I am.  The reason the weight is down on average... We are weak!  As a general populous it is pathetic.  Watching kids trickle into the Army over the sat two decades, it is pathetic to see what "strength" is.  
As a 230lbs dude, roll into the field of battle scared that if you go down, nobody is dragging you out alive.... They just can't.  
When I ptr on 100lbs of gear I can look around and find one or two cats that could move me if needed.

Just the basic: push-up, sit-up, 2-mile run is a life changing event for most... Hand them a dumbbell, not to mention a rucksack, and forget about it.  I've watched them try and swing sledge hammers, dig holes.... Hell, change a tire. It's amazing!
This country is doomed I tell you!

But hey, give them a cellphone or an Xbox and they can be anything you want them to be online... Car thiefs, gangsters, Special Forces super stars... They know everything there is to know about doing anything that requires zero exertion or use of muscle groups outside of their thumbs.

Ahhh deep breath.

Yeah, so as Men fade away and digitalis rise into the mainstream.... Draw weights are going to drop to equal one another. Joints fade, shoulders don't hold up, those years of physical labor and abuse of our bodies will put all the us on a level playing field with a bunch of kids that never broke a sweat in their lives. I understand that there will be quite a few exceptions to the rule, kids that were raised right, in the woods, on farms, or God willing found themselves with that friend, grandfather, stepfather... Or even mother sister or whatever in their lives that  raised them up right.

It's just sad.... They drink PBR because it's trendy, not because it's Union. Their skinny jeans, aren't wranglers or 501s.  Flannel shirts that are made of worthless material, "dang barbwire tatto doesn't even go all the way around"

It's just an absolutely weeker generation than I would have ever dreamed possible.  Smarter than crap, absolutely willing to work their butt off not to work at all...

Ya know, I'm sure every generation has said the same of their predecessors.  I'm sure I am weaker than my fathers generation, and he weaker than his.... Wonder what my grandfather said sitting around the campfire.  I remember when I was 10 or 12 I finally got to talk to my grandfather about bows, he use to talk about his bows, I was proud of my 35# Black Bear... But it certainly wasn't the 110# or 175# Hill bows he was shooting. Don't know if that type of raw manliness will ever be common place again. If I walk into a decent deal on. 100# Hill I will buy it just to try and be part the man he was.

Wow... That sparked one hell of a rant I guess.  I'll leave it and let the world enjoy.  Little frustration with the younger troopers these days I suppose. Really hard to build them up to where you want them, thinks it's called a l"eadership challenge"

Retirement will be amazing!

That is an interesting point, but, while I don't disagree entirely, I don't see the decrease in draw weight as some kind of social commentary.  I'd wager that the paradigm of a "hunting weight bow" has changed due to the "big names" opinion.  

For example, Howard Hill shot very heavy bows, and people who did not have the opportunity to find out what works looked to his equipment for guidance.  Fred Bear shot slightly lighter bows and Fred Eichler shoots lighter still. Think of it s a pyramid; These iconic figures create the norm and people who are looking towards them for guidance reinforce their norm.  More people follow the first generation and so on an so forth. WOW A cultural norm is born.

It is evident that this is happening if a search is done on the "what weight for elk" threads over the past 7-8 years. *Acceptable, recommended weights have fallen sharply, I believe due to the emergence of a new hunting weight norm.  However lazy people have gotten is not directly relevant to the average bow weight, much as shark attacks and ice cream sales increasing simultaneously are proof that cooralation is not always causation.

I like pulling my 68# recurve for exercise.  Just got done doing 3 sets of 10, as a matter of fact.  So when it comes to shooting, I can pull out that bow and shoot it quite well.  But that's just me.

Seriously, though... could it be that in past generations, we were shooting longer distances, and felt the need for more power?  It seems like in older magazine articles, there was a bit of pride in making long shots.  These days, longer shots are almost ridiculed.  Seems like with the move to  hunting deer predominantly from tree stands has changed the hunter's mindset.  Now much of the hunting has to do with the ambush, and when the shot is taken, the hunter has a greater ability to set up the shot exactly as he wants it.  Thus the hunter can feel more comfortable with a lighter bow.

Just a thought.

QuoteOriginally posted by mbugland:
I will dive into this as a young(er) buck in some instances... Or at least I want to keep tellignmyself I am.  The reason the weight is down on average... We are weak!  As a general populous it is pathetic.  Watching kids trickle into the Army over the sat two decades, it is pathetic to see what "strength" is.  
As a 230lbs dude, roll into the field of battle scared that if you go down, nobody is dragging you out alive.... They just can't.  
When I ptr on 100lbs of gear I can look around and find one or two cats that could move me if needed.

Just the basic: push-up, sit-up, 2-mile run is a life changing event for most... Hand them a dumbbell, not to mention a rucksack, and forget about it.  I've watched them try and swing sledge hammers, dig holes.... Hell, change a tire. It's amazing!
This country is doomed I tell you!

But hey, give them a cellphone or an Xbox and they can be anything you want them to be online... Car thiefs, gangsters, Special Forces super stars... They know everything there is to know about doing anything that requires zero exertion or use of muscle groups outside of their thumbs.

Ahhh deep breath.

Yeah, so as Men fade away and digitalis rise into the mainstream.... Draw weights are going to drop to equal one another. Joints fade, shoulders don't hold up, those years of physical labor and abuse of our bodies will put all the us on a level playing field with a bunch of kids that never broke a sweat in their lives. I understand that there will be quite a few exceptions to the rule, kids that were raised right, in the woods, on farms, or God willing found themselves with that friend, grandfather, stepfather... Or even mother sister or whatever in their lives that  raised them up right.

It's just sad.... They drink PBR because it's trendy, not because it's Union. Their skinny jeans, aren't wranglers or 501s.  Flannel shirts that are made of worthless material, "dang barbwire tatto doesn't even go all the way around"

It's just an absolutely weeker generation than I would have ever dreamed possible.  Smarter than crap, absolutely willing to work their butt off not to work at all...

Ya know, I'm sure every generation has said the same of their predecessors.  I'm sure I am weaker than my fathers generation, and he weaker than his.... Wonder what my grandfather said sitting around the campfire.  I remember when I was 10 or 12 I finally got to talk to my grandfather about bows, he use to talk about his bows, I was proud of my 35# Black Bear... But it certainly wasn't the 110# or 175# Hill bows he was shooting. Don't know if that type of raw manliness will ever be common place again. If I walk into a decent deal on. 100# Hill I will buy it just to try and be part the man he was.

Wow... That sparked one hell of a rant I guess.  I'll leave it and let the world enjoy.  Little frustration with the younger troopers these days I suppose. Really hard to build them up to where you want them, thinks it's called a l"eadership challenge"

Retirement will be amazing!

Yes, that's a factor. We expect less from ourselves as materials and technology make our lives easier. We are getting weaker and we seem to be okay with it.

I don't believe it's because today's bows perform better. I believe the aging process, and knowing more now than we used to, is the answer. Back in the day guy's like Bear, Hill, Swineheart and many others all shot bows of at least 65# or more. When I started in the mid-sixties if you didn't hunt with at least 50#, you were under-bowed. The heavier bow you shot, the better it killed, that was the mentality. Over the years we've come to know that razor sharp heads and accuracy trump draw weight. That's good, because most of us that started in that era can't pull bows that "kill better" anymore.

Bill,
I do get the point.... But I would buy into a multi-paradigm shift.  Sometimes popularity is based on capability, driving the social norm.
Commercializations of specific products drive sales and popularity. 75-100 lbs bows are not mass produced so they are not going to be promoted or popular, because the mainstream cannot achieve accuracy with them(nor does the mainstream want to put in the efforts to do so). The 40,45,55 lbs bows will seek, are available, and get the socialization and support from advertisement/commentary.  It's the cookie cutter idea... And everyone loves cookies!

I am absolutely respectful of those that are conforming to what your body is allowing you to do, I have done some pretty serious damage to mine over the years and have enough bionic parts to give very accurate weather forecasts from spine to tibia.

I do say, judging by the work my elders are able to still do, swinging a 12lb sledge for hours, to what I am capable of and almost 40, to what my 20yr olds are capable of (in general) there is a drastic decline. At 35 I was working pretty hard to keep up with a gentleman twice my age swinging an axe splitting wood, and I'm pretty familiar with doing that. At 37 two 20yr old privates  were struggling to keep pace with me swinging pick axes to dig a parallel whole to mine.

Really the requirement for work no longer exists, so the drive and capability to do so will fade. We have come to know that lower poundage, sharper broad heads and heavier FOC will kill effectively, so there is no longer a need to work to achieve what we once did. Thankfully so at times.... But with that we drift into the same root of hunting discussions, that all the sent locks, attractants, feeds a ad dance do-dads have made us less capable "hunter" while maintaining the same Kill ratios or better than previously achieved by those with more woodsman ship than we may ever see again in our lifetimes. Bringing most of us full circle back to why we chose to hunt with stick and string, that primal urge to truly feel the hunt again. 40 lbs or 100lbs, most are here out of true respect for what God has given us, feeling that deeper connection in the woods with stick and string, than cruising the back road in a pickup with a smoke pole.

God bless everyone of you, every story, every newbie question, everyone who spreads that true love of woodsmanship. I'm far from where I want to be, but you all help me stay focused on getting there. That desire to be back emir see in nature carried me through a lot.

1. No matter what the bow is marked, if you   watch  , most guys will short draw a heavy bow to about 50#.

2. Better/more accessible information thanks to the Internet.

3. Better/more efficient bows.

4. Better/more efficient arrows, aka carbon/carbon core.

For me, it's the arthritis that (seems) to have come on quite quickly. The real pain is in my wrists.

And it totally gags me. Now, I was never a heavy bow shooter, 55#@28" was my first trad bow and my favorite right now is a '66 Grizzly 52#@28", which hurts too much to shoot. I'm at 45#@28" with a '70 Grizzly and am contemplating a 40#er. Pumping the iron doesn't help much as the pain is there as well and I'm not into a drug fix. So be it.
All of the above are legal and capable for Deer, with Bears requiring the 45#er here in Nova Scotia.

I don't feel less manly because of it, I'm still working at 65 running a powersaw in the woods every day. That's manly enough for me. I remember Rod Jenkins (of Safari Tuff)posting a successful hunt pic with his 40# bow. Bit of an eye opener.

As stated, shoot what works, just don't let there be any wheels on it!

We are much softer as men.  I had no idea we were getting this way until I started coaching high school boys lacrosse.  Young men today are not what they were.  They are so sensitive.....like you literally have to make them understand that instruction and correction does not mean they're in trouble.

Don't even start me on the weight room.  Most are scared to death to even look at a 45# plate.  I'm 5'6", two months from being 40, 140#, and I'm squatting 225, getting ready to hit my bench goal of 225, and I moved 315 while doing shrugs two days ago.  My bows are 59# to 65#.  I try to take care of my body, eat right, and listen to what my body tells me.  I'll drop down when I have to, but right now I like feeling like a man...lol.

I'm sure there is more than one reason and I think age is certainly one factor for traditional shooters as has been mentioned - however I think the web and the ease of sharing information in general has led to an awareness that you don't need 65# to kill a deer. Sometimes we do learn.

As mentioned earlier, if you look at the recurves made in the 70s, the most common hunting weight was 40-45 pounds.  Not just for Bear but all of the other manufacturers as well (Shakespeare, Pearson, Wing, etc) with the possible exception of Damon Howatt.  Then in the 80s with the resurgence of (custom) recurves there was a practice of guys buying bows that were way too heavy for them (read: ego).  Try finding an Asbell Bighorn under 60 pounds!  Now, most trad shooters are over 40 years old, egos have given way to enjoyment and the bows are more efficient now than ever before.  At 55, I can still shoot a 60# bow ok but not as well as a 50#er.  I know I will have a problem (mentally) dropping down below a 50# bow - like someone will come pull my man-card. And I would probably tote a 60#er if I chase elk.  See, my ego is alive and well also.  If you can shoot a heavier bow without your form suffering and you enjoy it, more power to you.  But I am amazed at the guys that go kill elk and bear and other big critters with bows <50#s every year.  But enough of my rambling.

Were the last of the bowhunting breed and getting old.Next time you go to a big show look around.

Went from 63 down to 57

QuoteOriginally posted by Steve O:
1. No matter what the bow is marked, if you   watch  , most guys will short draw a heavy bow to about 50#.

2. Better/more accessible information thanks to the Internet.

3. Better/more efficient bows.

4. Better/more efficient arrows, aka carbon/carbon core.

x2.. Well said Steve.. Probably the best overall response.

QuoteOriginally posted by mbugland:
I will dive into this as a young(er) buck in some instances... Or at least I want to keep tellignmyself I am.  The reason the weight is down on average... We are weak!  As a general populous it is pathetic.  Watching kids trickle into the Army over the sat two decades, it is pathetic to see what "strength" is.  
As a 230lbs dude, roll into the field of battle scared that if you go down, nobody is dragging you out alive.... They just can't.  
When I ptr on 100lbs of gear I can look around and find one or two cats that could move me if needed.

Just the basic: push-up, sit-up, 2-mile run is a life changing event for most... Hand them a dumbbell, not to mention a rucksack, and forget about it.  I've watched them try and swing sledge hammers, dig holes.... Hell, change a tire. It's amazing!
This country is doomed I tell you!

But hey, give them a cellphone or an Xbox and they can be anything you want them to be online... Car thiefs, gangsters, Special Forces super stars... They know everything there is to know about doing anything that requires zero exertion or use of muscle groups outside of their thumbs.

Ahhh deep breath.

Yeah, so as Men fade away and digitalis rise into the mainstream.... Draw weights are going to drop to equal one another. Joints fade, shoulders don't hold up, those years of physical labor and abuse of our bodies will put all the us on a level playing field with a bunch of kids that never broke a sweat in their lives. I understand that there will be quite a few exceptions to the rule, kids that were raised right, in the woods, on farms, or God willing found themselves with that friend, grandfather, stepfather... Or even mother sister or whatever in their lives that  raised them up right.

It's just sad.... They drink PBR because it's trendy, not because it's Union. Their skinny jeans, aren't wranglers or 501s.  Flannel shirts that are made of worthless material, "dang barbwire tatto doesn't even go all the way around"

It's just an absolutely weeker generation than I would have ever dreamed possible.  Smarter than crap, absolutely willing to work their butt off not to work at all...

Ya know, I'm sure every generation has said the same of their predecessors.  I'm sure I am weaker than my fathers generation, and he weaker than his.... Wonder what my grandfather said sitting around the campfire.  I remember when I was 10 or 12 I finally got to talk to my grandfather about bows, he use to talk about his bows, I was proud of my 35# Black Bear... But it certainly wasn't the 110# or 175# Hill bows he was shooting. Don't know if that type of raw manliness will ever be common place again. If I walk into a decent deal on. 100# Hill I will buy it just to try and be part the man he was.

Wow... That sparked one hell of a rant I guess.  I'll leave it and let the world enjoy.  Little frustration with the younger troopers these days I suppose. Really hard to build them up to where you want them, thinks it's called a l"eadership challenge"

Retirement will be amazing!

Sounds like you need a little more time in the woods relaxing:)  Don't need to retire to do that.

I was shooting sticks back in the 60s, and then, bows over 50# were not the norm.  Some folks shot them, but most shot around 50# or less.  That's reflected in the poundages of all the vintage bows one now sees on the auction sites.

For some reason, in the 80s and 90s, bow weight took a jump.  Then 60-70# bows became the norm.  Don't really know why.  Of course, there were no large commercial bow makers then, just small custom shops. Folks who had been shooting a long time probably move up a little, as I did to 60 to 65#, but part of my reason for doing so was to hunt bigger critters like elk and moose.  

I suspect, too, that some of the folks who got started with compounds who switched to traditional thought they could keep shooting the heavy weight and thus the first trad bow they purchased was probably pretty heavy. Lots of those are sitting on the rack now, or up for sale and not selling very well.

As others have pointed, today's equipment's also more efficient so not as much bow weight is necessary.  A lot of that efficiency is due more to improved string material, arrow shafting and bow making materials (carbon) than to changes in bow design.

As I hit 70, I'm dropping down in weight to the low 50s for hunting and mid-40s for targets.  Just not as strong as I used to be.

I suspect that folks who regard archery as a hobby or pleasant past- time don't spend as much time shooting or hunting as those who consider shooting sticks and bowhunting a way of life. And thus, heavier bows are more difficult for them to  shoot, and certainly not necessary to enjoy shooting.  

The pendulum has probably swung back to the light side of "normal," whatever that is, but a lot of folks are also new to traditional archery. With all the information available now, more of them are making the wise decision to start at lower draw weights.

I sit here typing with my off hand because of ligament/tendon damage in my wrist from years of overwork. Once healed I could/can outwork most people 30-40 years younger than myself, am I going too, not anymore,period!!!!!

I hopefully will shoot my 40-45# bows with my HONEST draw length of 31 1/2" for years to come.

As you can tell  I believe many claiming to shoot 60-70- lb bows are in reality short drawing. I have not personally witnessed any "heavy" bow shooter do anything other than snap shoot.

QuoteOriginally posted by 3arrows:
Were the last of the bowhunting breed and getting old.Next time you go to a big show look around.

I know. I noticed that at Kalamazoo in 2014. There were some younger folks,too.

I'll echo most of the responses so far. People are living longer today, so there are a greater percentage of older guys still shooting. Many of the younger, stronger crowd who would be shooting 60# stick bows are shooting compounds or, like my neighbor, an x-bow.

The latter two are more effective for new shooters and it isn't until they reach the stage where the hunt with its challenges and excitement is more important than the trophy that they are willing to go the trad route. Used to be that was their only option.

Not to sound like a broken record but I believe the string is the thing...most of the string fibre development has taken place in that time period...it is pretty simple to get an extra 5 pounds of draw weight equivalent in performance by simply going to a faster string

DDave

QuoteOriginally posted by Ghost Dog:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by 3arrows:
Were the last of the bowhunting breed and getting old.Next time you go to a big show look around.

I know. I noticed that at Kalamazoo in 2014. There were some younger folks,too. [/b]

If I look back over my life, I see a trend that makes me glad I was young when I was, and not now.  The generation before mine had it tough with the depression and WWII.  But in the '50's, they were rewarded with good jobs, good retirement plans, and a 40 hour week that paid enough so generally only one person in a family had to work to make ends meet.  My generation had to work a little harder with a little less job security, but we still generally had time for our various hobbies.

After having most of the middle class jobs shipped overseas, a lot of the current generation has to work their butts off at two or more jobs, and they still can't afford a home and other things we took for granted.  Sure, there are higher paying jobs for professionals with credentials, but the work week for those jobs starts at about 60 hours and goes up from there.  In my opinion, that's mainly why you don't see as many young folks at archery tournaments or backpacking in the mountains these days.

I think Orion and others have explained this question well. I also started in the 60's. I knew a dozen or so other archers (all recurve shooters). All but two were older than me. For the most part we didn't know the draw weights each other shot (no forums back then). I wasn't aware of anyone shooting higher than low 50's. I was shooting mid-40's at age 16.

Frankly, among the guys I hunted with the archer's form, sharpness of broad heads, and shot choice decisions were considered more than the equipment the archer shot.  We were also camouflage fanatics. Dull clothes, tree bark, or WWII or Nam tiger patterns,  face paint, gloves, etc. I even remember spraying my Bear razor heads flat black except for the very edge.

Like Orion described when a bunch of folks switched to the compound one of the attractions was to bump up 10 pounds or more in max weight because of the let-off. In fact, some thought you should go higher in max draw weight to get a "clean" release with the let-off. Of course almost everyone shot with fingers back then (tabs and gloves). So, I went from 45# recurve to 60 pound compound so, at 33% let-off I'd still be around 40# at release.

As let-offs increased so did draw weights.

Then, I think just like Orion wrote, some compound guys started returning to recurves and kept up the draw weights.

I also think a few well known bowhunters, who also made bows, were shooting heavy draw weights and others followed.

Sadly, I think some have target related issues and can't get to full-draw. So, to get some performance out of their short draw they shoot heavy. Not everyone of course. Surely there are lots of heavy bow shooters (60#+) who have terrific form.

When you read about, know about, or have done it yourself-- put arrows completely throughs multiple whitetails with mid-40# draw weights, why punish yourself?

I keep a couple bows or sets of limbs actually, that will exceed (slightly) 50# at my real draw length of 26" just in case the moose dream comes true.

kbetts writes: "We are much softer as men. I had no idea we were getting this way until ....  "

I experienced the same in South Africa.  The South Africans have a very different mental image of what it is to be a man.  Call it "macho" if you want, though I suspect that's too simplistic.  Seems to me there are cultural imperatives at work.

Frankly, our cultural imperatives are changing.  I laughed at the "metros" in a Dallas restaurant, having expecting real Texans.  But, then, I wonder what the South Africans think of us ...  me?  

It's easier to change the culture of archery when the general culture goes the same direction.  And, you see Eichler shooting 54# at moose.  Look at Ted Nugents over in the compound area who insists on 50# bows and less.  Hey, I can be a tough guy like Ted without working up to a 70# bow.  

And, face it.  Most are shooting whitetail.  Who needs 70# for that?

I'm humored by talk of Fred Bear shooting 65#.  True enough.  But, I'm amazed that he shot Cape Buffalo with 65# as well!!  

Anyway, interesting discussion.

My first hunting bow was 40#.  That was in 1965, my second now was a 45# Bear.  My dad's bow was 56#. Shot compound for two years, then went back to recurves.

I  started shooting a 38# target recurve at league.  Everybody else was shooting compounds in the league. I think that may have done more for my shooting accuracy than any other single thing.

I jumped up to a 60#longbow and  60# recurve.  Big jump- probably too much, but remember I was shooting a full league with the 38, every week.  So I started out shooting 5 or 6 shots a night with the heavy bows, at home.  Recurve worked pretty well, longbow- not so much.  That was in the 90's.

About ten years ago, I moved down to low to mid 50# bows and I shoot those a lot better.  I am now 63 years old, and feel pretty confident with my 53# Blacktail or my 55# Tall Tines for that matter.  If I had to drop down to 45 for deer, I would do that.  But I shot an average buck with my 40# bow and was not
Impressed with the penetration so for that reason I think my minimum for deer is about 45. Just my opinion.

Well just consider the change in employment in the US during the 20th century.  Early on, most people were farmers.  Who needs to go to the gym when you work on a farm?  I grew up next to my uncle's farm and put several thousand bales of hay on the truck, then in the barn, then in the manger, shoveled the gutter many times, carried milk pails to the milk room, etc. etc.

Now many of our jobs involve sitting at a desk all day, and our upbringing generally doesn't call for physical labor.  Its no wonder people shoot lower draw weights.

My first hunting bow was 48# and the heaviest I had heard of among friends was 55#.  That was 1974. Over the years I worked up to and was shooting 77# as my primary bow and could handle well over 100#.  I am now in my mid fifties and get harassed for shooting 60# now when attending ETAR.  I still shoot 65-75# best while hunting.  My personal opinion is the folks who shoot alot of 3D are in this death spiral of draw weight.  We now see folks talk about 30# as enough for big game.  This is illegal in most states.  I think most folks would be able to draw in the 55-70# weight range just by keeping physically fit. I personally know folks over 65 years of age with major overuse injuries that still shoot north of 60#. To each their own, but it would be nice if folks stop berating those that wish to and can shoot heavier.

We're not the last of the bowhunters.  

Archer/bowhunter numbers have increased from 7 million (U.S.) in 2001 to 21.6 million in 2014. I know where 9.5 million of the new ones have come from.

Archery and bowhunting have never had a brighter future than now.

I am currently 67 yrs old and have been shooting a 70# recurve for over 40 years.  There will come a day when I have to back off the weight.  This is just the weight I am use to, but the lighter bows with the improvments in materials are probably just as effective.  I really hate to see someone "over bowed" as it effects their accuracy and their interest then drops if they can't improve.

Considering 20 yards or so is how far I limit shots on game to.....mid to upper 40s is MORE than adequate to get the job done..

Considering 20 yards or so is how far I limit shots on game to.....mid to upper 40s is MORE than adequate to get the job done..

the older ya get the more pain ya have so down go the draw weight's i shoot a 49 to 50 # horse bow and thats plenty for me.    if ya can't kill a deer with a 45 to 50 ya aint going to kill it with a 60   :archer:  just saying

It's just a different world guys. Back in our youth if someone said they were going to the gym it meant they were going to a basketball game , now it's something else. We lead sedentary lives. They call it "Progress". My first bow was a 65 # K Mag. I could no more pull that thing today than I could fly to the Moon. 10 years ago I routinely tugged on a 55 pounder now I'm at 48-50 #. I could pull a 55 # for deer hunting but if it's a bit nippy out the old muscles would never let me hit anchor.I agree with most in that modern materials and technology have made a 50 # equal to a 55 back in the olden days.A good sharp broadhead will go all the way thru a deer from a 45 # bow. There are exceptions of course. I have a friend who at 74 years of age can still draw and shoot an 80 pound bow, but he's one of those freaks of nature.(short , no neck). I've got one recurve, though it's a 51#, has real early draw weight, and that thing will flat wear me out over a 40 shot 3D course.One things for sure, if I lay off my bows for even a couple of weeks it takes a while to build back up to them.

I started with 50# nearly 20yrs ago. I still shoot 50# today. I shoot a lot, and if I go heavier, I just can't control it after a handful of shots.

Bisch

Some probably won't agree, but I don't care.  I think it's sad that some believe the supposed measure of a man is whether or not he can shoot a heavy bow.  Being a "man" has more aspects than strength.

Now, as for the original question, I believe it's multifactoral and due to a better understanding of FOC, tuning, etc...people have realized you don't need all that weight to shoot all the way through most everything in NA.

Well I read all of the posts so far and thought I'd weigh in on this seeing as I'm one of the young ones talked about. I'm 28 now, and started shooting a year and a half ago. Didn't switch over from compound or anything, just wanted to shoot and hunt with a trad bow. Also had never been hunting before either, and decided I wanted to do that too. I spent a lot of time outside in the woods as a kid, but never hunted.

Now onto the topic. I'll start by saying that prior to shooting I was in the military for six years and did more than most, when it comes to training and deployments. I picked up archery when I got out of the military. I also picked up body building as I've always been big into working out. For my size and body weight I can move some pretty high numbers. When I first started shooting I bought a 65# recurve because I'm a strong dude and I should have a heavy bow. I could pull the weight fine, and pull it often. I also like to hold at anchor for a second or so to steady my shot, snap shots aren't my thing.

The reason I dropped down to 50# is because I can shoot it all day and not feel fatigued. I'm hunting deer with it, (not successfully) and don't personally feel the need for more. Most of my time shooting is at targets and 3D. Can I shoot heavier bows, of course. Do I enjoy it, not really. I shoot trad for fun, I enjoy it. I don't feel the need to break a sweat sending an arrow down range.

For those of you who feel that the younger generation is weak, or not as "manly" as generations past. That is simply because the best are away fighting the war and you are seeing the ones who stayed behind. Believe me, I had the great privilege of serving with the finest sons our nation has.

I don't ink the "average" bow weight has dropped.

For a lot of reasons, including the greater availability of information, I think there are more archers who can shoot well.

I used to shoot 65# (I'm 5'7 and 145#) but I didn't really know what I was doing and I don't think I was every very good with it.

I shoot less weight now but I shoot with much greater accuracy and precision.

I forced myself to read all before commenting.

MBug and others, I cannot nor will not argue the trailing generations are less fit... no doubt.

I've seen no one comment on our history.  I have bows given to me by people my father's age, peoples dad's, Uncles, etc... that would have been say what? 40 yrs ago those chaps were hunting?

Those bows were ALL in the 40's.  The older stuff I could scrounge 30 yrs ago was all that light... then the craze for heavy hit... and now it's going back again.

Are we really going to suggest that our Father's were WEAKER then us?  Weakness has become a factor, yes, but a cause?  I'm reticent to agree.

History has a way of repeating itself and all things sooner or later become "new" again.  I never understood how/why all those older gents had 40-45# bows and arrows (I Have a Green/brwn silver medallion BEAR of 40# given to me) but I'm old enough to have seen that was true not that many decades ago, so it seems the circle is just coming around again...?

Two back surgeries and a rotator cuff surgery got me

doug77

The older guys nailed it pretty well. The average bow weight in the mid 60s was 45# and my group was pretty average.

Compounds came on the scene and the bow weights jumped 15-20# to 65 and 70#.

Guys started shooting traditional again and bought 60-70# bows and were overbowed.

They came to their senses and went back to 45# bows which shot as well as their 60# bows.

It may very well be true that there are more people living a less active lifestyle now but I can only really speak for myself.

I'm 56 years old and have spent about half my working life shoeing horses for a living. I'm not going to say that it's the hardest work there is but it sure isn't the easiest. LOL

Can we call it "hard work"? I'm not a big man so even if I am strong for my size, I'm not going to be nearly as "strong as some of the BIG guys.

The fact is that even this "hard work" is much more about skill and precision than it is about strength. If you find yourself very reliant on brute strength, you're probably doing it "wrong".

In he early 90's I belonged to a large archery club in the Chicago area. There were quite a few "trad" shooters.

A couple of things stand out in my memory. They had really cool looking gear and fairly heavy bows...mostly longbows. I remember being amazed at how slow their arrows flew and how they managed to never hit anything.

I had switched from my compound to a recurve and was essentially shooting it the same. Vertical bow, draw, hold and aim. I remember a number of them offering the advice..."don't shot like that. Shoot like this." And they would demonstrate a cool looking shot that didn't hit anywhere near the mark. I wondered why I would want to shoot like that.

I also remember an older gent who was shooting a 40 pound brightly colored recurve and nailing the bull over and over from 40 yards. His arrows appeared to fly fast and straight.

Looking back I realize that those heavy bows shooting the painfully slow arrows were probably the result of a short draw and poor arrow flight.

A post above really honked me off but it would be oh so non PC to call BS when I read it.

I voluntarily deleted the remainder of this post because it served no purpose but  my contesting a youthful claim.

Growing up in South Africa up up to early 90's it was compulsary for every young man to do initially one year and in the 80's two years of army service. It was tough and strenuous training. ( i repeat every young man, not only able men) Those with medical issues also, they did service as cooks and light duties. From 94 no compulsary service anymore and almost an non existent defence force. You would think that the young generation would be less physical than then but I don't experience that over here. I see thousands of young guys who daily do gym work and are really physical strong. Many of them have the vision of playing rugby for South Africa and the clubs expect the guys to weigh over 95kg and be physical really strong. Many of them have to train hours and hours to pick up the extra weight. The discipline of the younger generation compared to those who did service..... Well thats a different story..... .....

You stated, "Twelve years ago, the average draw weight for men was 60+ lbs, now it's in the mid-40s...(sic)"


The reasons?

Twelve years ago, people were 12 years younger.

Twelve years of the internet, and being able to read field reports (and ask questions -and get quick answers directly from the poster) of successful bow hunts with draw weights in the mid-40's.

QuoteOriginally posted by riser:
You stated, "Twelve years ago, the average draw weight for men was 60+ lbs, now it's in the mid-40s...(sic)"


The reasons?

Twelve years ago, people were 12 years younger.

Twelve years of the internet, and being able to read field reports (and ask questions -and get quick answers directly from the poster) of successful bow hunts with draw weights in the mid-40's.

"Draw weights for men averaged 55#-60# 12 years or so ago. A woman's bow was in the low to mid 40#s."

You raise some valid points.

I'm twelve years older as well. Maybe I'm just lucky to have, so far, avoided injuries and infirmities, but I also strength train regularly which is probably a factor.  

Field reports have been absolutely an influence of draw weights chosen. Great point. Why use more draw weight than is necessary?

I've tried lighter bows. They feel really odd to me, which is no doubt a factor of what I'm used to. When I shoot with friends they are always surprised by how "heavy" my bows are. They don't feel heavy to me, and maybe that's all that matters in the end; what we're comfortable with and what will deliver an arrow right where we want it.

I started out with 45# bows and worked up to 60# bows. I shoot mostly 50-55# bows. But I do hunt with 55-60# bows. I am 63 yrs of age. I believe, at least for me, proper warm up, stretching and some regular exercise that is targeted to the shoulder and back muscles is key.
I don't look down on anyone who has gone the other direction. I just wanted to be the most effective in hunting big game as I could be.

QuoteOriginally posted by riser:
You stated, "Twelve years ago, the average draw weight for men was 60+ lbs, now it's in the mid-40s...(sic)"


The reasons?

Twelve years ago, people were 12 years younger.

Twelve years of the internet, and being able to read field reports (and ask questions -and get quick answers directly from the poster) of successful bow hunts with draw weights in the mid-40's.

I think out of all the comments i like this one best...   :thumbsup:


I also think that a lot of guys that shoot all the time have taken this archery to a different level. they got lighter weight bows to work on their form and shoot a lot more without tearing muscles.... lets face it... its a lot more fun to go to a 3D shoot and spend a weekend shooting 300 plus arrows and not being too sore to pick up a pencil on Monday....... I like to shoot my hunting weight bow on the first couple rounds, then switch to something in the high 40's for the rest of the weekend.... I do this all winter and into mid summer before i put my lighter weight bow away.

I still think a hunter should use as much draw weight as he can shoot accurately. There is no such thing as over kill IMO.... you figure that out pretty quick when you hit one at the wrong angle with a light weight rig and not get the penetration.... i prefer to stay at 54-58# for hunting myself.

QuoteOriginally posted by snag:
I started out with 45# bows and worked up to 60# bows. I shoot mostly 50-55# bows. But I do hunt with 55-60# bows. I am 63 yrs of age. I believe, at least for me, proper warm up, stretching and some regular exercise that is targeted to the shoulder and back muscles is key.
I don't look down on anyone who has gone the other direction. I just wanted to be the most effective in hunting big game as I could be.

Nicely stated.

I think many of the reasons are all accurate. I do believe that, on the whole, young people today are not as strong as they used to be. They just don't do the physical work done by past generations. So, naturally, many don't desire to pull heavy bows.

That is good, because it is true that equipment seems to be more efficient, meaning heavy bows are not needed to get the upper edges of performance.

Like many, I am getting older, and while I used to pull quite heavy bows, I just can't handle them well anymore. Thank goodness, I don't have to try.

I believe part of the drop in bow weight also has to do with shooting form.  Many archers today are compound converts or like the draw-anchor-creep-release shooting form.  Lower bow weight makes it easier to use a reference for aiming like the arrow, or gap.  Snap shooting style like Fred Bear, or Howard Hill, like a wing shot style, is less common today.  Heavier bows tend to be more effective in that style of shooting form. I think the general avaliability of information like FOC data, bowhunters limited their yardage to closer shots, also influenced archers to shoot less weight with more mechanical advantage from the arrow for penetration.

I'm not convinced that the average weight has really dropped.

Mbugland you hit it right on the head.  I work with young people every day and the physical condition (or lack thereof) is amazing.  When I started shooting  I knew about 6 people who hunted with a bow period.  The one man's wife was 5' tall and weighed maybe 100#.  Her Super Mag 48 was 55# at her draw weight.  The men all shot 65 to 75#.  I made my way up to the 80# bracket and shot a ton of game but my comfortable weight has been 72# for years and now as a retirement age guy that's what I still shoot comfortably.  My son and now his 14 year old son shoot from 80# down to 60# and kill deer regularly.  People can talk all day about how much more proficient bows are now days but the number of deer I get asked to track every year that people shot with the new, reflex/deflex hybrids in low weights that got no penetration tells me they aren't as efficient as people pretend they are.
    I think people have allowed current "life" get in the way of good old fashioned physical fitness and so tell themselves that it's really not needed so they don't have to work at it.

It would be easier to discuss the effectiveness of the bows using some objective measure.

It's not all that hard to kill a deer if you have access to hunting land that deer frequent. By the same token if we assume physical fitness has slipped it isn't hard to imagine that hunting skills have also slipped.

That still doesn't tell us anything about how much draw weight is really needed.

I think mgr hit on another interesting point...hunting skills and woodsmanship.

Many of us in the midwest grew up hunting squirrels and groundhogs. These and Dad were my best instructors.  Lots of folks go straight to big game now days because they can. We could not when I was younger because population levels (Indiana) weren't strong enough. I didn't see a live deer until I was 16 years old ...killed him with a 45# Ben Pearson Cougar -1970

I wan't strong but I was wirey (me and Barney Fife).

I grew up hunting small game with my father in northern Illinois...rabbits, squirrels, pheasants, doves and so on. We rarely saw deer and it wasn't until I was in my late 20's that I started seeing enough of them to get the idea I should start hunting them. I had a son of my own before I killed my first deer.

Today, in northern Indiana I know a lot of young hunters (some who are successful) who never shot or ate a squirrel or wild rabbit. They go straight to "trophy" hunting.

Most of them who bow hunt use a compound. Since cross bows were included in the regular archery season a couple of years ago, some have switched to a cross bow.

These are farm kids (kids, compared to me) and they are not necessarily unfit physically.

What can you say? Lots of things change as time goes on.

The study of human evolution, we don,t usually hunt by throwing stones anymore either, we perfected better ways to kill, dose not mean we all do it the best way possible. IMO use whats most effective for yourself, 40# to 70# or whatever. Good hunters should be physically fit just to be safe afield.

I think part of the reason draw weights have dropped is because of the bowyers-not meant negatively (afterall, who knows their product better). Many of today's bowyers want to talk to prospective buyers over the phone.  The bowyer wants to know what you're planning to do with "his bow"-are you a hunter, a competitive shooter, or a just for pleasure shooter.  He wants to match his product to your wishes. A hunter needs one well placed shot.  A competitor needs to shoot hundreds of well placed shots.  A fun shooter is somewhere between the two extremes.  The bowyer wants you to be successful/happy with his "product". A 3D shoot is much different than hunting in 10 degree weather, which is different than roving/stump shooting. How many of us shoot competitively with a bow of lower draw weight than our hunting bow?

Going full circle.  Not so much performance difference as people are learning it doesn't take 60# to kill a deer.

Personally, I don't really hold the whole "weight" issue as one of major importance. We all are smart enough to gravitate towards what works the best for ourselves. My reasons to shoot a certain weight, is likely to not even enter in on the requirements/needs of another. I don't know why weights of bows are what they are, other then there is a need, to suit each of us perfectly. Once we are comfortable with a bow, shoot it accurately, being well tuned, and go through the learning curve of making good hits on animals under adrenaline stress,,,,, then success comes and the freezer stays full... so who cares really what bow weight they used to do it with? Collecting meat is the focus I'm thinking... An interesting read none the less.

Whether or not you need more or less weight to kill a deer I don't see being an issue.

Correctly drawing heavier bows takes more work, and it's harder. It's physically tough, and there are some people who just will not see it as necessary.

I retired a year ago yesterday from the Army after 25 years...and I can tell you the things us old timers routinely take for granted as simply being part of an outdoor sport like the infantry...kills kids today.

One day another Sergeant Major mentioned something I had never considered. He said, Russ, these babies have never even had to physically roll up a car window...and now we have a whole generation of them. How the hell are they gonna carry a heavy rucksack and weapon as far as we go?

Think about that.

I started shooting a recurve in 1958. My first bow was a Bear Kodiak Special that pulled 36 lbs. at 28 inches. Almost everyone in our archery club at that time was shooting bows that ranged from 35 to 45 pounds. One gentleman was shooting a 47 lb. bow and it was the heaviest pound bow in the club.

The following year (1959) I purchased another Bear Kodiak Special (which I still have and still shoot on occasion) @ 43 lbs. at 28 inches.

For years, I deer hunted with bows that pulled around the 43 to 45 pound range. In the 1980's, I moved up to the 55 pound range bows when I began hunting other big game animals thinking that I needed the extra weight for bear, moose, caribou, etc.

I still use 55 lb. bows for most hunting, but I must say that I am more accurate and, enjoy shooting, the lighter weight bows.

I think that when the compound craze hit the archery/hunting scene, it had an affect on traditional hunters because speed seemed to be all the talk in the world of archery. Heavier traditional bows helped speed things up. Perhaps over time, we traditionlists realized that the accuracy and enjoyment of shooting lighter  equipment over-trumped speed. Certainly age has some bearing on going to a lighter bow as well. At any rate, using a lighter pound bow is in my immediate future!

I started with heavier stick bows but I think it's because I came from a 70- pound compound and I didn't know any better. I just arbitrarily chose a recurve/long bow weight that was only a little less than my compound and went up from there.

In later years I learned what "good" form looked like and saw how accurately a stick bow could be shot...and learned something about tuning!

I still roll my truck windows up and down with a hand crank too. LOL.

You know?...while I have no intention of going back to a regular diet of my 65# longbow, I'd bet money that could shoot it FAR more accurately now than I could back when I was hunting with it. It wouldn't even be close.

Here's another factor.

Back when I was shooting heavy(ish) bows I thought I was going to hunt Alaskan moose and brown bear...maybe some 600# really mean Russian boar.

My rifles and handguns were big too.

Now the reality. You know what I shoot? More paper and tin cans than anything. I shoot a few few rabbits, squirrels and the occasional scrawny little whitetail.

Things are not looking up for those "big game" trips that I dreamt of when I was younger.

My wife's bow is more than enough and my bow is more than I'll ever need.

QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
I was shooting sticks back in the 60s, and then, bows over 50# were not the norm.  Some folks shot them, but most shot around 50# or less.  That's reflected in the poundages of all the vintage bows one now sees on the auction sites.

For some reason, in the 80s and 90s, bow weight took a jump.  Then 60-70# bows became the norm.  Don't really know why.  Of course, there were no large commercial bow makers then, just small custom shops. Folks who had been shooting a long time probably move up a little, as I did to 60 to 65#, but part of my reason for doing so was to hunt bigger critters like elk and moose.  

I suspect, too, that some of the folks who got started with compounds who switched to traditional thought they could keep shooting the heavy weight and thus the first trad bow they purchased was probably pretty heavy. Lots of those are sitting on the rack now, or up for sale and not selling very well.

As others have pointed, today's equipment's also more efficient so not as much bow weight is necessary.  A lot of that efficiency is due more to improved string material, arrow shafting and bow making materials (carbon) than to changes in bow design.

As I hit 70, I'm dropping down in weight to the low 50s for hunting and mid-40s for targets.  Just not as strong as I used to be.

I suspect that folks who regard archery as a hobby or pleasant past- time don't spend as much time shooting or hunting as those who consider shooting sticks and bowhunting a way of life. And thus, heavier bows are more difficult for them to  shoot, and certainly not necessary to enjoy shooting.  

The pendulum has probably swung back to the light side of "normal," whatever that is, but a lot of folks are also new to traditional archery. With all the information available now, more of them are making the wise decision to start at lower draw weights.

X2

That was a good post to quote.

I'm one of the 80's archery crowd too...from 70# compounds to 65# stick bows.

Then I met that "old" gent sinking them in the bull from 40 yards with the 40# bow when most of us couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. LOL

If I started 10 or 20 years earlier I probably would have started by shooting field with a 40(ish) pound bow...and it might not have taken me so long to learn the basics.

I think Orion hit the nail on the head.    :thumbsup:

No disrespect to anyone, but, having been to many traditional shoots, the level of physical fitness among traditional archers is appalling. Yeah, ok, a "50# high performance bow will kill anything in North America". So,if that"s your reason to shot lighter weight bows, then fine, but, " getting old" is no excuse to be fat, lazy, and weak. Part of the lure of Traditional Archery is the ability to pull a bow. I remember last year reading a post from someone about buying a lighter weight bow, his comment was " why work any harder than you have too". Well, if that's you attitude, but a compound. A traditional bow is a weapon, a weapon used through mankind's early history, used by men and women for killing food and your enemies. If you want to shoot a traditional bow, train to shoot one.

And to paraphrase Don Thomas: "Traditional archery is not for everyone, it was not meant to be easy". No, shooting 55#'s and up is not easy, it requires training and dedication. Most do not seem willing to make the sacrifice.

One of the things that might come with age...if you're lucky is the wisdom to choose the right tool for the job and discipline to learn to use it.

"Bigger and/or heavier" isn't even a sound strategy for choosing a hammer (long time farrier and blacksmith here)...though it's often the strategy employed by those not skilled in the use of a hammer.

Big ditto to Duncan from Idaho. Many folks who attend the 3 D circuit are in this death spiral of draw weight. I remember recently someone was talking about his 30# longbow for hunting.  At this rate they will be at 0# within a decade. A friends 8 year grandson shoots a 40# bow. My size 0 100# wife shoots 43#. Jay Campbell's wife shoots 74#. Fred bear shoot 70# into his 70s and so did Howard Hill. The biggest issue for me is the bossiness of the "enlightended" 40# and less crew. They constantly harass those of us who shoot heavier weights better.  People seem to be getting MUCH lazier and softer lately. I hunt public land and used to see folks deep in the woods hunting al day. Now, I get past 200 yards I am alone as if in a wilderness. Yes, a 40# bow will take most game on a perfect shot at 10 yards. Get comfortable with 77# and you will not need a rifle to keep meat in the freezer.

This topic always seems to morph into, "everyone should shoot the heaviest bow as they can shoot accurately...Light bows can kill game just as well as heavy bows...Heavy bows kill game far better than light bows...archers are more accurate with lighter bows...archers who shoot lighter weight bows think they're elitist ...My wife, son, daughter pulls XX amount of weight..." Blah, blah,blah. With all due respect, shoot what you want. If it's a legal weight bow for the game you intend to hunt, then hunt with whatever weight bow you want. Personally, I could care less what weight bow anyone shoots or hunts with, let alone if someone is old, fat, lazy or weak.   :deadhorse:

I don't care what equipment somebody wants to shoot or hunt with except...

If you happen to think that getting more archers interested in "traditional" archery would be good for the sport, I think the single best thing we can do to help the sport is to shoot better.

A lot of the bow hunters I know around here have never considered a single string bow and they seem to be of the opinion that nobody can hit anything with one. They don't even take it seriously as a hunting weapon.

On the very rare occasion that I visit the local indoor range, I gather a crowd by hitting the 5 spot a couple of times in a row at 20 yards.

I'm not all that good but the very few other stick bow shooters I've seen there spray their arrows all over the wall.

OK an 8 year old shoots 40 pounds or a 100# lady shoots 43#. What does that tell us?

Have them pick a small spot and shoot at it a bunch of times and count up the hits and misses. That might tell us something.

I can draw my 65# longbow. Heck, I could probably draw it far enough to break it in half. I can launch a bunch of arrows off of it.

But now we could move on to actually measure my ability to control those shots.

I better pass on this one......

Two quotes from a compound kid that hunts the same place I do.
To his buddy, "There is no way his bow has enough power to kill a deer."
To me, "holy crap, that arrow didn't even slow down when it hit that buck, jeez, look at all the blood."
A 52@26" longbow.

Maybe shooters today have the luxury to know more about draw weights because of the internet forums?
Also, try to find a consistent and repeatable source for wood arrows that match weight and spine requirements for a 61l@31" modern recurve.
The woman drawing the heavyweight bow might not pulling it to it's marked weight and she must be Hercules offspring. Most men would not be comfortable with a 70s plus lb bow. I know a team full of division 1 athlete women who lift daily and are bigger and stronger than the average male and I doubt any could be comfortable shooting bows beyond 40lbs

QuoteOriginally posted by duncan idaho:
And to paraphrase Don Thomas: "Traditional archery is not for everyone, it was not meant to be easy". No, shooting 55#'s and up is not easy, it requires training and dedication. Most do not seem willing to make the sacrifice.

Duncan, I agree with what you're saying and also with Dons quote above.
Reading Don's article in TBM August/September 2015 "Achilles Shoulder" he himself ends it with the advice to shoot the bow necessary for the job.
That's the only advice an archer needs in this discussion.

Actual draw length is a good point. I started my stick bow shooting in a large club after dumping the compound.

There were a bunch of guys who had great looking gear and heavy bows...mostly longbows. I had a 55# Howatt hunter that shot like greased lightning. I was always amazed at how SLOW their bows shot. The arrows just lobbed in there.

I was shooting an elevated rest and vanes. At first I thought maybe it was the feather fletching that made them fly o slow.

Now I realize it's because those big guys shooting those heavy bows probably weren't drawing 22" before releasing.

If you're going to draw that short, you need a bow that's real heavy at 28".

QuoteOriginally posted by NBK:
     

QuoteOriginally posted by duncan idaho:
And to paraphrase Don Thomas: "Traditional archery is not for everyone, it was not meant to be easy". No, shooting 55#'s and up is not easy, it requires training and dedication. Most do not seem willing to make the sacrifice.

Duncan, I agree with what you're saying and also with Dons quote above.
Reading Don's article in TBM August/September 2015 "Achilles Shoulder" he himself ends it with the advice to shoot the bow necessary for the job.
That's the only advice an archer needs in this discussion. [/b]

You're right, Mike, Don and Duncan. Shoot the bow necessary for the job. I may have come off too strong. The bow necessary for the job is regulated by the game departments of each state. In Illinois, it is 40#@28" draw for whitetails. My only point was that if someone chooses to shoot 40#s, they should not be criticized for shooting 40# instead of 50, 60 plus pounds. I get tired of the traditional archers consuming their own trad friends, or other archers, arguing over silly issues of whether one archer is being ethical. When an archer choose to shoot a bow which meets state law or we are demeaning to people who physically can't shoot a heavier bow, it lesses us all. If I choose to hunt moose or elk, I would work very hard to shoot a bow necessary for the job and I think all ethical archers would do the same. I've always been strong physically but as I have aged to now 50 yrs old, injuries have taken a toll on my athletic prowess. We all age differently and for those of us who can age gracefully and maintain youthful strength, God bless you! For the rest of us, we may struggle with injuries, disabilities and diseases which limits our abilities as we age. Most of us have no idea what others are going through personally. We are all brothers and sisters in this wonderful love of archery.

longbow fanatic 1  I thank you for your second post there are other threads such as "argument for heavy bows" that are the other way around.  I personally have no problem with what people shoot or why they shoot them. I have chosen for me what I wish to shoot and expect others to do the same. Traditional Archery is a mastery of ones self not a mastery of things.

So true, Richard.    :)

Not everyone needs to always start way light, the compound kid I quoted from three years ago, that was so impressed with my Robertson longbow, took my advice on a more fluid shooting system.  I picked up a 55# Pearson Rogue that was heading out to a garage sale, way better bow than I was expecting for $10, like new.  One evening, I told the kid you dump the wheels I will show you how to use this thing, showing him the Rogue.  Last August he did. The bow with a half dozen 1918s with field points and screw in Bears seem to work for is new 27" draw.  He was waiting by my rig one evening this fall, Subaru Outback and 4x8 cargo trailer.  He offered me $50 if he could use my deer cart.  I told him no, that I did not pay that much for the stuff I gave him, but he could certainly use my cart.  My that was a huge doe, hole straight through, it dropped in less than 50 yards.  The next night the wife and myself went to our favorite restaurant for prime rib.  We did not get a bill, we got change from the $60 that the kid left to pay for our meal.  Now he wants to learn how make wood arrows.  What goes around comes around I guess.

I am not that is correct? I still shoot a 65# bow at 65yrs, It's just comfortable.

I have a friend who is 72, he now hunts with a crossbow during archery season as he can no longer draw any kind of vertical bow. He says at least part of the reason is the damage done over the years by using 70-75# recurves. If you are hunting really large game that is one thing, but if you are like most of us east of the MSRiver and don't chase anything larger than whitetail I don't see anything manly or noble about using a heavy bow when a 45-50# one will do the job just fine. Use what makes sense for the task at hand.

he should not be in bowhunting season with that contraption anyhow....  when I cannot draw a hunting weight bow then I will stop bowhunting and start giving more to others that can and pick back up my black powder .54 with open sights.

Like it or not cross bows are being made legal during the regular archery season in a lot of states. My state is one of them.

On what grounds do you say that somebody shouldn't do it?

I have no problem with them for those in his position.

QuoteOriginally posted by mgf:
Like it or not cross bows are being made legal during the regular archery season in a lot of states. My state is one of them.

On what grounds do you say that somebody shouldn't do it?

just because the AMA and the hunting personalities are promoting it as the largest cash product in hunting the past 5 years....it is NOT a bow...is not hand drawn and shot..uses a mechanical trigger on a rifle stock and most come with scopes.  Want to use it during rifle season..fine...but dont try to tell me I got to like it in bowhunting seasons or call it a bow.  It is not.   Surprised it is not BANNED from being mentioned here like its vertical cousin.

Easy answer to the thread is that we have all gotten 12 years older and fewer and fewer young people shooting stick bows. The good thing is that there are a lot of great bows being built that will shoot an arrow as hard and flat at 45 lbs at most would at 55 lbs 12 years ago. So we haven't lost much.

God bless, steve

Age sort of did it for me but not because I'm weaker. I just got tired of not shooting as well as I thought I could. Rethinking draw weight was only part of it.

As much as I love to hunt, most of my shooting is just shooting. I can shoot right outside my back door and often shoot for long hours throughout the year.

I've done a lot of things in my life...learned a trade, started businesses, went to college and built a career. I was a "technical" scuba diver for some years and went to depths in places and using breathing gasses that most divers only read about. Oh and I raised two kids mostly by myself.

But I'll say this. Trying to shoot a bow well has probably been the single hardest thing I've ever attempted.

Somebody could criticize my choice of equipment but I'd challenge them to make the case that it's because of a lack of work, dedication or "sacrifice".

The simple fact is that I'm not satisfied with my accuracy and precision with my 45# "hunting bow" or the 37# bow I'll be shooting as soon as the sun comes up.

If I thought that adding weight would profit me something...anything, I'd pile it on. If I can't achieve my accuracy/precision goals with 45#, I doubt I'll get there with 60 or 70.

QuoteOriginally posted by Brock:
he should not be in bowhunting season with that contraption anyhow....  when I cannot draw a hunting weight bow then I will stop bowhunting and start giving more to others that can and pick back up my black powder .54 with open sights.

What you will do is up to you.  Congratulations on already having that figured out.  I've said it many times and I'll continue to believe that a crossbow is for 2 types of people; the lazy and disabled  I feel this is their intended market anyways.  It isn't right to shame a person who can't draw a bow for using one, just like it isn't right for an able bodied person to drive around walmart in a hover-round.

I think crossbows are for only one type of person...those who like to shoot a crossbow.

Back in the "old days", when I first started shooting a bow, I only knew one guy who owned a crossbow. He just thought crossbows were "cool" and bought one. And, he wanted to hunt with it.

I work with a guy who dumped his compound for a crossbow when they were made legal.

I don't think he wants to be an "archer" or a "traditional archer". He mostly wants to harvest a few deer on the back side of his own farm while it's still tolerable warm...which means the archery season.

Personally, I think it should be legal for him to snare a few if he wants. It's his land.