Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Stringpuller#1 on January 18, 2016, 08:35:00 PM
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I'm a compound shooter and I'm on my 4th bought and sold recurve. I've had more stress in the last few years, spent tons of money trying to match up bows, points and shafts, looking for a great set up I can be confident enough with to hunt.
I'd like to shoot a 145-150 grain point from my 50lb Herters recurve, aluminum shaft.....I. ant keep wasting money experimenting with shafts, I just went through 6 2020's and couldn't get good flight, at the expert recommendat ion of the archery shop. 2016'S 2018's length, spine....I'm going crazy over here....help
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What's your draw length with the recurve?
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Start with bare shaft tuning if you haven't tried it. I would think a 1916 will be perfect, maybe even an 1816, depending on your draw length.
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Just sent you a PM. Call me and I will help you man.
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You really need to get with an experienced trad guy in your area to help you thru this. Tuning can be a nightmare if you don't have it all figured out.
Good luck!
Bisch
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Bosch x2
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Part of your experience may be adjusting expectations. Modern compounds tend to shoot stiff, comparatively light arrows at arrow speeds at or in excess of 300 fps. A vintage Herters recurve at 50# is going to produce a noticeable arc shooting a lighter spine arrow with a heavier tip.Shooting 2020 shafts with 150 grains up front with that bow is like lobbing artillery shells compared to squeezing the trigger release on a compound.
That 1962 Herters is a classic but part of its design is a brace height around 9 inches, which means a shorter power stroke. That bow has a limb profile that is smooth to draw but the force curve puts a premium on a full 28" draw and can handle a few more inches and a good release makes a noticeable difference.
Assuming your draw is close to 28", I would consider a 1816 shaft cut to one inch beyond your draw length and a 125 gr. point with standard 11 gr aluminum insert. Also check your string and make sure you're not shooting a using too heavy a string. Make sure your nock point is right..as you experiment with different diameter arrows, you have to adjust your nock point.
Good luck!
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While I have very limited experience with aluminum arrows... I can guarantee you that it WILL work! At first, traditional archery is much more difficult to wrap your head around. But to those of us who choose to embark on this journey, it is so much more rewarding and fulfilling. Most will admit that they have never really and truely mastered this art, but they'd have it no other way. Think of it as trying to earn your black belt in a martial art. That's the beauty of traditional archery. Even if you do get that black belt, there will always be more to learn, live, and love. It's all about enjoying the journey! As soon as that first light bulb goes on, and you see that first perfectly flying arrow hit exactly where you want it, you too will understand. Don't give up, it's closer than you think!
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Phoenixarcher beat me to it. Couldn't have put it more succinctly. I too am new to this addiction. Had one hell of a time tuning one of my bows but didn't give up. After consulting a lot of threads here, re: tuning, finally came up with the right combo. A "eureka" moment and it felt good. This is what it's all about. Get back in the game and just enjoy. There are a lot more important things to get stressed about than archery. :thumbsup:
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Originally posted by smokin joe:
What's your draw length with the recurve?
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If you can get a close approximation of your draw length, I will go through my arrow bucket and see what I have in various spines that may work for you and send them your way. I should have most of the spine weights listed.
Give me a shout.
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I was in your shoes when I started. After the initial "this is way to fun stage" i became frustrated.
Stick with it, follow advice from knowledgeable trad archers. I dont know your pro shop but mine will sell me the wrong item 9 times out of 10 and also try to talk me out of what I want at least half the time. They simply do not know trad bows.
The point for me when things started to "click" was when I went to a friends house and shot with him. he spent a couple hours helping me tune my bow. walked me through the process. My shooting narrowed from a 4 foot radius to a 1 foot, then it was just practice on my part.
Good luck and you are in the right place. keep the questions coming. Its ok to walk away from shooting when you get frustrated. in fact its a good thing. Remember, this is supposed to be fun.
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Try the 3 rivers archery spine calculator and maybe don't tune arrow shafts to a specific point weight, there are a lot of other options out there besides 145-150 grains.
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I always could get 2016s to fly well out of 50# bows with 125 gr heads. Leave them long at first and then cut.
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going from a high percentage holding weight let-off compound to a trad bow that increases weight as its drawn to draw length is a big consideration. you may very well be overbowed without knowing it.
there is absolutely no reason in the world why any of the arrows you've chosen won't work at least reasonably well.
you must seek one-on-one local help from an archer who's well versed in trad archery.
this may of great initial help ...
trad archery for bowhunters (http://tradgang.com/docs/trad.html)
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Stringpuller, I've re-read the original post and the points that really stand out are;
1. You initially identify as a compound shooter, presumably using a mechanical release. Errors in release are harder to do, so you may not be thinking about a flawed release with fingers, although it seems imperfection is not that rare when shooting fingers. Perfectly tuned arrows can behave erratically if there is even a small error in release. Never underestimate the likelihood of human error.
2. What is your draw length and how long are the arrows? These are important numbers, as cutting any old arrow just longer than your draw seldom works.
3. Point weight really matters. I don't really understand why someone would settle on a point weight and tune shafts to match that point; seems like building a deck and then building a house to match it.
4. No mention of brace height- This is important, but not as critical as the right arrow shaft, adjustments up or down can yield perfect flight from mediocre flight.
Spine calculators are available online and are easy to use. I really like 3 Rivers Archer's version, but people speak highly of Stu's Spine calculator too. Understand the Archer's Paradox is helpful. Tuning without know-how is a frustrating experience, but there's a ton of knowledge on the topic here at Tradgang with plenty of archers much, much more knowledgeable that I who are happy to help.
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Thanks for all the advice, I really want to make the transition to hunting with traditional equipment. I'm way too accurate with my compound and it's just not "fun" to shoot anymore besides going hunting with it. Like I said, over the last few years I've bought recurves from the classifieds, had tons of fun slinging arrows, sometimes, until my draw fingers ache for days after, but as soon as I strip the feathers off an arrow to get "serious" about this thing, it always reveals spine issues and what not, to where I get frustrated and sell everything, falling back to the familiar compound.
Anyway, I'm determined not to give up again, especially since I had Kanati make me a custom quiver for this bow.
I'll try 2016 and see what happens, I see many people using that shaft on line who have the same draw length and draw weight.
My draw is 28", maybe a tad over and the bow is 50lbs at 28" but probably closer to 48lbs since its older and may have lost a pound or two with age......thanks again.
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I second the 2016 with 125 up front. Cut them to 29" bop...
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Here is my set up just for comparison.
51# Great Northern Super Ghost recurve @ 28"
my 27" draw (48#) with 29 " 3555 gold tip carbons with a 150 gr point shoot bare shafts and fletched arrows together at 20 yds. field points and broadhead impact is the same at 20 yds. 7 1/4" brace.
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VA Elite mentioned Gold Tips and I concur. You cannot adjust anything about an aluminum arrow except length and weight of point.
Carbons I believe will eliminate a ton of frustration here.
Get you the correct spine Gold Tip Carbon arrows (35/55 or 500 spine) and some weight inserts and you can make the arrow do what you want.
I start with the length arrow I want to shoot because this is important to me when I anchor. I want the broad head to touch my finger on my bow hand.
Then put the field point of the weight of the broad head you want to shoot up front.
Bare shaft this and see what happens. You then can add weight up front if you need to weaken your arrow spine or add weight to the back if you need to stiffen it.
I ended up with a 50 grains brass insert and 200 grain broad head up front and no weight on the back. Excellent flight and good FOC (front of center). My bow is 47# @ 28". I went to a Fred Asbell clinic years ago and watched Ken Beck shoot bare shafts 30 yards like a dart using this type of tuning protocol.
Great thing is if you switch bow weight in the future you can use the same shafts and just adjust the insert weight and tune to that bow.
I will send two attachments to your e-mail with instructions.
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I forgot to mention that I also use 50gr brass inserts. for a total of 200 gr up front.
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In the end, we all have to work it out for ourselves, but if you are really that serious about making this work, spend the time/money to locate either a competent trad instructor, or a trad group with a weekly league or shoot of some kind. Find someone you can get along with who shoots well and ask him to help you tune the bow. It will save a lot of frustration and, in the end, a lot of money.
Just because someone is shooting well, doesn't make him a good instructor and his methods may not be right for you. However, the fact that he is shooting that well means you can learn something from him. Learn enough from several different style shooters and it will help you get things smoothed out.
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One thing to consider is measuring your draw length accurately - if you are just assuming the draw length of your compound is the same as it is on your recurve, then there's the problem. Your draw will be at least 2" shorter on a trad bow than on a compound. Those 2" can make a MAJOR impact on tuning. You must know your accurate draw length to know where to start with arrows.
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More great advice thanks. I'd prefer to use aluminum or even wood, just because I shoot carbon in the compound and I'm trying to leave it all there, radically change it all in my switch to traditional hunting.
I'm going to take a leap of faith and buy some 2016's and start there. I do have the field point test pack so I can start at 100 gr and go all the way up to 200gr. Thanks for all the encouragement, something about pulling that string back and letting an arrow fly keeps nagging at my psyche, has me wanting to sell my compound even to get a newer custom bow. I'd like to say I started in this art with the wheel bow and now I need to graduate and go backwards in time for my next course, if that makes sense?
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I have no knowledge of aluminum arrows except for 20 some years ago with a compound. So i cant help at all with those arrows or wooden arrows. As far as draw length, mine is the same as my compound but not at first. it was shorter for a while and then it came to be 27" after I settled on my anchor. good luck with it all.
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You ought to have someone check you shooting form. As Rob mentioned above, you may be over bowed without knowing it.
Before anyone can start to tune arrows to their bow, their form had better be pretty darn good, otherwise they'll be getting all sorts of false readings that are due to a poor release or inconsistent anchor or any number of things.
Personally, Id work on form with a good teacher and a low draw weight bow, then when you've really got it down. go back and tune those arrows to that Herter's
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Having been down the same road as you recently. I would look at form and maybe consider carbons. I think they are a little more forgiving until you get your form much better they may help. I relate form to golf, you will know when you are doing it right.
Also, take a breather and relax. The more frustrated you get the worse you will do, I know from experience. Have fun with it, if you are not perhaps you should re-evaluate why you are doing it. :)
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Poor form alone will make every arrow shaft you shoot look like crap in flight. Generally speaking when nothing works, its your form. Just something to consider.
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Originally posted by Archer1977:
Having been down the same road as you recently. I would look at form and maybe consider carbons. I think they are a little more forgiving until you get your form much better they may help. I relate form to golf, you will know when you are doing it right.
Also, take a breather and relax. The more frustrated you get the worse you will do, I know from experience. Have fun with it, if you are not perhaps you should re-evaluate why you are doing it. :)
I have to agree with this 100%. Man last year I went through this I even started with Carbons. I can only imagine the frustration of Alum/wood arrows and trying to do it alone. Please reconsider the carbon arrows and try to find someone that can be of help. I had some help last year but most of it was trial and error. It takes a few months unless you are just really gifted.
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There is a really nice traditional archery shop in Rochester MN. If you are around there, I'd stop in and talk to Terry, I think he could help you figure some things out.
It's the Footed Shaft.
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Originally posted by Stringpuller#1:but as soon as I strip the feathers off an arrow to get "serious" about this thing, it always reveals spine issues and what not, to where I get frustrated and sell everything wow. I'm glad that I've never "gotten serious". If arrows are flying straight and grouping where is the is the problem? Try bareshafting when you're perfect, until then, be happy when you hit were you look.
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If we could get aluminum arrows to shoot perfectly in the 60s with absolutely no knowledge of tuning I'm sure you can too. To me they are the easiest to understand and tune.
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I got some 2016 Gamegetters, cut them to 30.5 inches with a 145 gr point and this seems to be ok. I did bare shaft one of the arrows, though not perfect is liveable for me for now, with feathers they fly well.
I plan to practice daily so come April I'll be accurate enough to try for my first traditional turkey kill, then deer in the fall.....I'm even going as far as taking my compound to the pro shop down the road and having the string and cables removed and store it for the whole year so there's no changing my mind, 2016 I'm committed to tradional archery hunting only.
My total arrow weight is 512grains, 50lb Herters recurve, 28" draw, hunting with 150gr muzzy phantom 4 blades.
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I bet with a few more weeks or months you will be bare shafting those arrows when your form fall into place. Good luck and keep at it.
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I'm with reddogge....2016s ...