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Author Topic: Release hand pulling away from the face.  (Read 1093 times)

Offline Sojurn

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Release hand pulling away from the face.
« on: June 23, 2021, 02:11:07 AM »
 Since it's the off season, and I have a new bow on it's way, I figured it's time to start messing with my form again. 
  I've never been happy with my accuracy, so I figure I had better buckle down and really start focusing.

  Lately I'm working Release, Follow through, and Back tension. In that order. I figure I'll start with the string hand, and work the parts I think are the most screwed up first.

  I'm using a rotational draw, and keeping my wrist bent inwards (or at least pressure on it in that direction) throughout the shot(talking string hand here). And in these videos I'm working on "grabbing the ball off of the shoulder" as the string cuts loose.
  But no matter what I try, I cannot get rid of that pluck. And I dont know why.
  Any thoughts?

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline Otto

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2021, 09:40:28 AM »
Interesting that you listed back tension as the last item.    When I see your video, what's obvious to me is that you don't have any back tension.   That's why your hand and elbows come flying backwards on the release.    If you have proper back tension, your release hand will be dead.   It won't move backwards because it can't move backwards if your back muscles are under tension.    I would make drawing and holding using your back muscles priority number 1.   Do that, and the other 2 things fix themselves.
Otto

Online McDave

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2021, 09:44:57 AM »
I note in comparing the photo of Terry’s form clock and yours kneeling in the same position, that your wrist is angled out away from being in line with the arrow, and in fact is in the direction your hand travels away from your face on release of the arrow, whereas Terry’s wrist is more in line with the direction of the arrow.  Are you relaxing your wrist as you draw the bow?  My understanding about bending the wrist when initiating the rotational draw is that it is a starting position only, that the wrist should be relaxed such that it is in line with the arrow as the force of drawing the bow straightens it out.  Since I got this information from either reading one of Arne’s posts or watching one of his videos on the rotational draw, perhaps he could clarify his intentions here.



« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 09:51:17 AM by McDave »
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Offline Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2021, 09:19:43 PM »
So the reason I'm placing back tension 3rd on the list of priorities is because I believe its the least bad part of my string hand shot. I think I'll get more for my effort by focusing on the release first.
  As far as my wrist goes, it's something I heard Tom Clum mention on a podcast.  It seemed to help, so until I get further guidance I'll just stick with it.
  So far, I'm un-learning how to shoot. Groups are opening up pretty bad, but I'll keep plugging along until things get better.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Online Pine

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2021, 10:08:54 PM »
You are a good candidate for a static release.
Your hand will stay against your face better.
And don't let go of the string, let it slip from your fingers. 
If you don't like the answer, ask a different question.

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Offline Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2021, 10:23:06 PM »
It should be said, I'm not intentionally letting go of the string. The string coming out of my fingers is subconscious. What I am trying to do, is have my fingers close after the string cuts through them,  rather than having my hand go totally limp.
  I will look into static release though
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Offline Otto

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2021, 08:30:21 AM »
I've been shooting trad for about 30 years.   I've met many people who think that letting go of the string is a subconscious act.   It's not.    You let go of the string when you want to let go of the string.   You WANT to let go of the string when you WANT to let go of the string.    You'll know when you see someone's subconscious let go of the string.   They can't get to full draw and ZING......off goes the arrow.  That's the classic textbook definition of target panic.   That's your subconscious letting go of the string and you don't want that.


Physics.   You can debate it, but it always wins in the end.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Your wrist is bent and cocked in towards the string.    When you release, it has only one direction to go.

Hint:.    It's not straight back.........
Otto

Online McDave

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2021, 10:35:46 AM »
I think that you bring up an important point here, Otto.  I believe we use the term “subconscious” too loosely.  I am as guilty of this as anyone.  We all have to WANT to let go of the string before we shoot.  However, wanting to let go of the string is not the same thing as triggering the shot.  There are two important things about triggering the shot: it must not be triggered prematurely, and it must be a surprise if it is to be a successful shot; therefore, it happens at some point after deciding that we want to shoot.

You say that when people subconsciously trigger the shot, their release happens prematurely.  That may be true; I don’t know enough about the subconscious mind to debate the point.  However, I do know many people who do not use an external trigger who have beautiful surprise releases, including Terry Green and Rick Welch.  Terry uses a dynamic release, and Rick uses a dead release.  Terry may increase back tension until the shot is triggered; Rick “waits for the shot to go off.”   I even include myself in this category, although I am nowhere near their proficiency.  Maybe we are using some part of our unconscious brain other than the subconscious to trigger a surprise release?  I think to avoid confusion in the future, I will refer to these successful surprise releases where no external trigger is used as an internal trigger, leaving the term subconscious trigger to those who understand the subconscious mind better than I do.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 04:40:34 PM by McDave »
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Offline Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2021, 11:47:05 AM »
Ok. I have no problem conceding the point about the subconscious. That all makes sense to me.
  It is perhaps more accurate to say I'm not actively thinking about letting go of the string? In my head, once I get to anchor, get aimed in and decide the shot feels good and that I'm going to shoot it, I'm thinking "aaaaaannnnndddd....." while increasing the pressure on my right scapula until the shot breaks.
  At least, thats what I think I'm doing, or am trying to do.
  I'm not thinking "Now!" Or "shoot" or whatever the case may be.
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Offline Otto

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2021, 06:35:56 PM »
Yep....agree with all of your points.    We all use some type of trigger to execute the release.    But it's a conscious trigger, not a subconscious one.

Good discussion.
Otto

Offline Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2021, 07:12:39 PM »
Otto, you may have been correct about the bent wrist as well.  As I said earlier I picked it up from a listening to a podcast and I had success with it when shooting a different bow this spring. BUT, I was trying to  UNbend it and my groups got tighter. I'll need to work with it a bit before I'm consistent enough for video, but... fingers crossed. 
  It's been a frustrating few weeks.

Thanks again for everyone participating.  It has been a good discussion. 
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Online McDave

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2021, 07:34:15 PM »
“BUT, I was trying to  UNbend it and my groups got tighter.“

Don't try to unbend it; just relax and it will unbend itself.  In fact, your near-term goal should be to get rid of all of the tension in your hand (except for your hook), your forearm, and your biceps of your string arm.  Maintain enough tension in the triceps of your bow arm to keep it steady.  The back of your string hand and wrist should flatten out as you draw the bow without your having to think about it if you are sufficiently relaxed.
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Offline Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2021, 08:29:21 PM »
  I say "unbend" because there is a certain amount of muscle memory built in now.  But your point is noted, and in fact I just got in from trying to exactly what you suggested McDave. My groups are inconsistent,  but I am starting to group again (as opposed to patterns).  In fact, for about 3 ends there before I got tired and I stated to lose concentration, I shot some of the best groups I've shot all year.
  I am noticing that my curled wrist may have been a band-aid for my hook on the string. In trying to relax everything it feels like I don't have as much control of the string as I'd like.  It may be something that sorts it's self out as I get a feel for this.  I don't know enough just yet to say anything definitive.  Great advice so far.
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Online kerry

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2021, 10:07:22 PM »
I have filmed my string hand and it travels similar yours, not as far away from my neck/shoulder but similar.  My groups

are real good though.  I have improved them by re-strengthening my 3 fingers as I approach my trigger of feather to face.

I maintain scapular engagement along with "firming up" my fingers until I hit trigger.  I don't completely understand it but

the results are consistent when I do this.   




Offline Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2021, 02:37:46 PM »
Ok, so I don't have help with filming today.  Maybe in a day or two I'll try getting that done again.  But so far I've been focusing on keeping my arm relaxed.  I find myself letting down a lot, maybe 30% of the time because I don't love how the string feels in my hook. But it's getting better as I go. I also switched back to carbons (and changed to a different quiver to accommodate them), the woodies I was shooting were pretty thrashed.
  All in all it seems to be working, the best groups I shoot are when the string feels good, and I focus on increasing tension (saying "aaannnnddd" in my head) and finishing position for my hand.  If I start trying to aim to much my groups open up.  Not sure if I'll be able to focus on aiming more later as the muscle memory becomes more solid, or if I have to trust in the Force for aiming and let go of some control.  Time will tell I suppose.

This is the last group of the day. from 20 yards.  I did send the second arrow over the top trying to aim, I just focused on shooting after that and let the arrows fall where they were going to.  Strangely, they all hit where I wanted them to....
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Online McDave

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2021, 03:50:14 PM »
Sounds like you’re on the right track, Sojurn.

I think you have enough to occupy your mind at the moment.  I’m sure you’ll be able to figure out an effective aiming system later, after all the things you’re trying to do now become automatic.

I set my hook as a part of my predraw.  As the first step in my draw, I push my bow arm down and forward at about a 45 degree angle.  I push it with just enough force to feel the tension in my hook.  I hold it there for a second or two until I am sure that my string hand is relaxed and my hook is properly engaged.  If my string hand is not relaxed, I can usually do that as I am holding in the predraw position, but if anything is wrong with my hook, I take the tension off my string hand and readjust it.  The nice thing is that at this moment there is nothing else going on, so I can devote my complete attention to my string hand and hook, and then not think about it for the rest of the shot.
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Online PrimitivePete

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2021, 10:19:58 AM »
I like to take a deep hook and focus on placing increased pressure on the string before releasing. The pressure is not generated by my grip in the string but the tension in my Shoulder/Back, which leads to a more dynamic release. In my opinion a release in this fashion helps reduce the pluck and allows or straighter sting travel.

Offline Terry Green

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2021, 04:20:12 PM »
If you will worry more about proper alignment and back tension, your release will fix itself.

You can have the most perfect release and be totally out of alignment and your perfect release will be negated.
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Offline Russell Southerland

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2021, 04:23:17 PM »
Ah, looks like another candidate....

Check out the Form Clock thread in the Shooters Forum.  Lots of info there.

http://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=109531.0

Offline Terry Green

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2021, 04:36:55 PM »
I will also add that my release is totally subconscious, no different than not telling myself to let go of a baseball when I throw it, or telling my self I'm at my peak jump height so now I can shoot the basketball.

My entire shot is subconscious to the point of when shooting at game I don't even remember drawing the bow. 
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"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

' An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to execution' - Me

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