What we don't know

[hunt it]

Where did Liddafella go??? Were ya just bored Curtis or did ya intentionally stir up the Schnit an run?? Way I sees it premature ejection or TP as yawwl call it is 100% a mental condition. Somes inflicted some aint. Anyone with the problem contact Rob he has the cure. Do whatever works for you as long as your hittin the spot, who cares how!

[JC]

Whewwwww....couple of mouthfuls there that are hard to swallow.

 

Originally posted by Steertalker:
There is however a proven form and technique that WILL work for just about anyone if they are willing to put the time and effort into it.  It's just an alternative for those who have to work hard at everything we do and want it bad enough.

Please don't insult my efforts, don't presume that you or anyone else has worked any harder or want any more than I have at becoming an accurate shot. I think my technique is proven too....and I sho nuff have put the time and effort into it.

Steertalker, no one is saying not to get instruction. If you can find a qualified coach, fantastic. But not everyone has access to such a resource. For those that can find a good coach, why even read these posts cause you have someone with the answers there. For all the rest of us: And I've tried to say it a million times but there is a certain faction that chooses not to hear it: THERE ARE MANY ROADS THAT LEAD TO THE SAME DESTINATION. Just because you can't do it with one technique does not mean others can't. I will admit this in my situation...can you? Whatever style you choose, whatever method you use to get there, if you are hitting what you are aiming at, you are doing it right. And don't let ANYONE tell you differently. Been down that road and wasted years of happy shooting trying to stuff myself into someone else's idea of "form" and "practice" and a lot of other hog wash. If you are not hitting what you want, try something new! Don't suffer, life's too dang short, and trad archery far too much joy for that.

 

Originally posted by Steertalker:
Anyway, back to the original subject...TP is real and you don't get it simply by talking about it.

However, we can agree that it is mental, can we not? And as a "mental" issue, there may be some unorthodox ways to "fix" it that are simply a paradigm shift in how a shooter "thinks"?  I don't discount the paths of others as valid and effective....and don't expect others to discount mine.

 

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
You must want to beat TP, you must acknowledge that it CAN and WILL be banished, you must begin the TP cure with a very positive mental attitude that you ARE gonna beat "it".

You must first lose yer sight, and so free yer mind.

Very nice post Rob. You said it all, at least for me, right there brother. The first part of that statement speaks volumes from the path of positive thought. It's astonishing what that simple act of positive affirmation can do...in just about every aspect of our life.

The second part of the quote: That's part of the peace I find in trad archery: that calm, quiet, space where stuff just happens....without forcing it...flowing like water almost. When I allow it, that's the way it happens for me. If I miss, at this point in my walk, it's 100% because my mind got in the way. The mechanics are ingrained and if I can kick my brain into neutral...the body performs perfectly.

I hear ya Dave....just hit what yer aiming at, however you do it is fine.

[Steertalker]

Appreciate your post above, Rob.

Still don't see that I was going for anyone's jugular or how I was dissing anyone; simply wanted to participate in the discussion and make some comments that are based on personal experience(approximately 30 yrs) and observations.

I just see things very black and white and my observations have been that the shooters that suffer the most from TP are instinctive/snap shooters.  And I have yet to see an instinctive/snap shooter win anything in my neck of the woods.  All the winners have pretty much the same style with minor individual variations-kind of a Rod Jenkins style, if you will.  I think that is more than a coincidence.  That is just my personal observation.

Also, I am not trying to change or belittle anyones style of shooting.  If you are happy with how you shoot, GREAT!  Nock yourself out.  If having a bad day once in a while doesn't bother you, then don't let it bother you.  Personally, and I stress personally, that is unacceptable to me.  I want to be able to deliver a well executed arrow with 100% repeatability and predictability.  I didn't say I don't miss.  You can deliver a perfect arrow and still miss.  

Rob, your step by step rehab above makes my original point that TP does exist and has to be dwelt with from time to time.  And if I remember right, that's what started this whole thread.

Anyway, I'm tired and it's time for my sensitivity training.

Brett

[JC]

Originally posted by Steertalker:
 I didn't say I don't miss.  You can deliver a perfect arrow and still miss.

Brett, when you get back from your training, I hope you'll come back and continue the discussion...I'd like to hear how it's possible. Honestly, truly, no poking...I'd really like to hear your side of how you can deliver a perfect arrow, at a static target, and still miss.

[Rob DiStefano]

Brett, TP attacks anyone that pulls string - don't matter if yer punching paper, foam or game.  I see TP the most with freestyle target archers and not with bowhunters.  

Most barebow archers that have TP look like snap shooters because of their inability to come to anchor - so they short release very quickly and dump the arra because they just can't come to full draw.

Most freestyle archers that have TP can get to anchor but just can't let go of the string.

In both cases, it's TP at work and the archer needs to effect positive mental changes to get back to a good shooting process.

There is no "bad day" with TP - you've either got "it" or you don't.  "It" doesn't affect some shots and not others - those kinda issues are probably best resolved with a shooting coach, or spending more woodshedding time with yer shooting, cause you ain't got "it".

Lemme say it again - "TP" is NOT synonomous with "snap shooting" - they are two completely different things.  Period.  

I think that about two pages ago the concensus was that, yep, TP did exist and it's a mental condition.  

Shooting perfect arrows has nothing to do with TP, either.  If you can shoot a perfect arra, you ain't got TP.  And if yer "perfect arrow" misses, I'd sure like to know why!

[Aaron Proffitt]

I agree, Rob, that snap shooting and TP are definitly not one in the same. Further,I'd like to add that one can have a consious aiming method and still snap shoot. I am a split-vision shooter and  never pause at anchor. Drawing hand never quits moving.
 I think part of the problem is when the form facist and others see a person shoot who doesn't go thru the steps as they believe they should occur, then they are more than happy to diagnose the problem as TP. Regardless of how well the shooter is performing, the FF seem to believe what's going on behind the bow is more important than where the arrow winds up.
  All that to say this, I believe TP is best left to being diagnosed by the person who believes they have it.

[Rob DiStefano]

Right, Aaron.  TP has nothing to do with "form", and "form" has nothing to do with TP.  "Form" is a physical element and TP is purely 101% mental.  TP don't care what kinda form, or lack thereof, you employ.  Once TP gets on yer back, yer in a world of hurt from an archery perspective, and you need help asap.  

How do ya know if you have TP?  As Aaron sez, you'll know it.  For sure.  It's a very recognizable state of aiming/releasing panic.

A bowhunter doesn't have the luxury of a static, repetitive archery form.  I think that as a bowhunter it's fine to learn formal target archery form, but using the majority of that type of form for bowhunting is impractical, if not impossible, if not just plain ol' dumb.

[Talondale]

Just thought I'd throw a quote in from a Jack Howard article I was reading on this site.

"Many will not acknowledge there are psychological aspects in archery until it becomes a first-hand experience. Recently one of my customers started asking some questions about freezing off target. I quickly said, the less you know about freezing, the better off you are. He then explained that he had been shooting top scores until he asked some of his friends just what is freezing. After being told, he immediately began freezing. He has been trying to lick the problem for six months, but his shooting is steadily getting worse."

Jack also has a long article about how he beat TP, although he refers to tp as "IT".  

I'm wondering if the origin is from so much self pressure we create by high competition?  Does TP effect the casual recreational shooter?  or is only tournament/hunters where the desire for a good shot is highly magnified?

[Aaron Proffitt]

Talon,

Kinda reminds me of the old story of the spider and the milipede.

 Soon as the milipede was asked how he could walk with all those legs and not trip over 'em; he wondered about it, thought about it, and then began to trip.

I find this 'lil fable applies to alot of things, especially trad archery.

[JC]

I do know quite a few "target type" shooters who are deadly bowhunters. I've been shooting with Shane Collier the last few weeks while he was working on my side of town. He's straight up, flat footed, hold for a good second or two-plus type shooter....he killed 14 deer last year with a trad bow.

Donnie Kinard, Timberghost, shoots very similar....bet if you walked 10 deer by him under 35 yards he'd kill the first 4 with 4 perfect shots....and none after cuz that's all his freezer will hold.

Rod Jenkins has a similar style, and I don't think anyone would argue his ability on game or targets.

There are numerous others, those just come to mind first. So I'm not so sure about the static repetitive form being impractical. It is for me, but then, I can't hit the broad side of a barn shooting like they do. But it sure works for them.

I've seen lots of guys with the symptoms that others have talked about as being TP. Typically, I see it manifest itself in short drawing for those that shoot quickly and "double clutching" from those that hold.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by JC:
... So I'm not so sure about the static repetitive form being impractical. ...

My bad for not elaborating ...

By "static repetitive archery form", I was referring to the shot and form process that a formal target archer employs, i.e. a FITA fingers freestyle archer as depicted in Rick McKinney's "The Simple Art of Winning" (an excellent tourney archer's book, BTW).  

This is the classic archery form that doesn't change, that in fact should NOT change, since the shooting scenario doesn't change much if at all (a flat field and a clear path to a butt that's 20 to 90 meters from the shooting line).  

As a formal target archer, you do NOT want to vary that form, that stance.  You will also be required to make as many as 200 shots in the course of a few hours.  

As a bowhunter, you most likely ain't got no choice but to shoot from many varied positions of stance and body angle, and one shot will hopefully suffice.

BTW, JC - that TB longbow is SWEET!  Thanx again to Shane and you!        

[LBR]

For what it's worth........

I know for a fact that archery is a very mental sport--kinda' weird in that aspect, because most of my archery buds aren't too strong in the "mental" department (myself included).    

I don't doubt that someone can talk themselves into IT, but I also know for a fact that you don't have to have a clue about IT to get IT.  I had a round with IT that lasted for about 6 months.  A long time later I discovered what IT is, and that IT is what I had.  I've had some rotten days since, but I don't think I've ever had what I consider another case of IT.

From my perspective, IT (or avoiding IT) has a lot to do with your level of confidence.  You absolutely cannot hit what you are shooting at by trying not to miss.  You can't hit the woods with the primary thought of "I hope I don't loose or break an arrow today".  I began taking shots that were suicidal for my arrows, just to prove to myself I could make them.  Sure, I still destroy one here and there, but most of the time I'll make the shot because I know I'm capable.


Chad

[longbowman]

I've been shooting bows since the mid 60's and to say there was no such thing as "Target Panic" 30 yrs. ago isn't correct.  I owned an archery shop 30 yrs. ago with indoor lanes and we talked about target panic a lot back then.  I used to shoot both instinctive and with sight pins back then and had the "Typical Indoor Target Panic" syndrome.  I had to sight my target bow to 6 o'clock because there was no way possible that I could bring my pin down into the bullseye of the target.  I froze soild at noon and could blow nocks off all day but couldn't force that pin down to the center of the ring.  I've honestly seen target panic with instinctive shooters before but it seems to be pretty rare.  Like you I don't get target panic when shooting instinctively I just miss the thing I'm shooting at sometimes!

[JC]

Gotcha Rob, understood. And yes, I agree about the bow being a hidden gem. I believe, Troy could go full time makeing those and stay booked up.

Chad, I hear ya clear on the confidence thing. As an aside, have you experienced the same weirdness I have with the # of arrows you have and your confidence level? I always have 5 in my bow quiver....but I've found I tend to take the crazy shots, and make them, when I've got a bunch of backup arrows and care very little if I mess up or lose an arrow cause I got the backups.

[Steertalker]

I think part of the problem is when the form facist and others see a person shoot who doesn't go thru the steps as they believe they should occur, then they are more than happy to diagnose the problem as TP

Hmmmm....if I was a sensitive kind of guy, my feelings would be hurt.  But, I'm not.

Regardless of how well the shooter is performing, the FF seem to believe what's going on behind the bow is more important than where the arrow winds up.

What's going on behind the bow has EVERYTHING to do with where the arrow winds up.

JC, the only way I know how to best answer your question is by posing two scenarios and then following up with a question for you.

Scenario #1-You smoothly draw down on a deer with 100% confidence that you can make a perfect shot, coming to and settling in at anchor.  Running your shot exactly like you have done hundreds of times in your back yard with the predictability of a robot.  Back tension is good, you calibrate, aim and then at the point of commitment, you increase the back tension slowly, the arrow is losed subconsciously and your string hand recoils straight back.  Good follow thru.  Perfect execution. The only problem is that your calibration was slightly off and you missed slightly low or high.

Scenario #2-You draw down on a deer but this time you're only about 80% confident of a clean kill.  When you get to anchor, your back tension collapses forcing a triggered release(like a flinch).  Your string hand ends up two inches from the side of your face and you drop your bow arm, no follow thru, no control.  But this time you got lucky and make a perfect shot.

JC, which shot is the perfectly executed shot?  Personally, I'd rather be in control than lucky.

Another thing, I don't recall saying anything about a stiff, static, straight up or whatever form.

I can shoot my bow sitting down, standing up, from the ground, from a stand, leaning sideways, backwards, whatever.  And just because someone holds doesn't mean the shot can't be run quickly.  Good form is good form and it can be run at the blink of an eye(not snap shooting) or as long as you want.  And yes, a shot can be run perfectly with 100% predictability and consitancy and still miss.

Brett...form facist

[woodsman]

Rob... I'm not discounting your advise but your comment was it could be cured in 5 minutes... an hour..  less than factual

JC... you're advice won't work with someone with tp. This isn't meant as being dis-respectful.. just stating a fact..You know nothing about that which you speak when it comes to tp.

Steertalker... the two of you won't agree cause you're both talking about different things.  I'm not saying JC is wrong but I am saying when it come to someone with tp He's unable to understand you and seems to think his methods are being challenged by you... Same old stuff I've heard for years, there's no help there.

There is a cure.. I've talked to many people here via PM and E-mail who have beat it and have shared their experience with me.
Thanks to them I'm beating it.  It's unfortunate they're reluctant to openly share their knowledge..

 I thank all of you that took the time to help.  I appreciate it more than you'll ever know.  

Enough said!!
 
Good Hunting
Chris

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by woodsman:
Rob... I'm not discounting your advise but your comment was it could be cured in 5 minutes... an hour..  less than factual

"Less than factual"?  That's obviously your opinion and at this point, noting your posting attitude on this Tp matter, I could care less what you base that statement on, specially since I've not worked with you to help you with your TP.              

I've yet to work with an TP afflicted archer that didn't totally lose TP immediately, the for the first time, just by closing their eyes and drawing back an arrow to anchor, holding to a count of 3, and releasing the arrow into a target.  Takes less than a minute and TP is gone.  That sightless act shows the archer many things and gives them the insight and confidence to move forward.  

And yes, I've witnessed TP fully eliminated in less than 5 minutes.  Doesn't mean that can happen with everyone.  There are no guarantees with anything in life, but it is important to instill confidence that TP can and will be beaten because TP is a mental condition, and a positive attitude esposed by all is very important.  

Glad to hear yer on the road to recovery, woodsman - an unused bow and arra is a terrible thing to waste.  Good luck.

[JC]

Brett, I didn't realize you were a form fascist....I had thought you were from the "if your hitting your're doing it right" camp....and I saw you write a few posts back about how everyone is different. To me, that means what may work for some, may work for others...what doesn't for some doesn't for others....but because there are countless variables and individualities, there is no ONE way to be right. I quite often hear people touting there way is the only right way and other folks is the wrong way. I find that pompous and arrogant personally, I would never assume someone was wrong just because I didn't agree with them.

That said, based on your two scenarios, neither is a perfect shot, both missed. The perfect shot hits....but maybe that's just me and my simple semantics. What you described in scenario 1 was a good draw/release...but still a bad shot...because it missed. The calibration is as much a part of the shot as the back tension, at least to me. In scenario 2, there was still no perfect shot, the shooter just got lucky. If you are lucky say 90% of the time, well, I wouldn't call that luck, but "hitting what yer aiming at". I know a guy that anchors out in front of his face....hits like gang busters on anything he shoots at. Is it "correct form" as described by many? No, but I'm sure not going to argue with someone as successful as he is. Now, I do agree that I would rather be good than lucky, hence the practice and equipment preperation and scouting etc.

I see a very evident fundemental difference here in trains of thought. To me, the shot begins when you decide to shoot something and lift the bow....and ends when you lower the bow. The aiming is not seperate from the arrow release, at least in my sequence....it's all one fluid flow, all tied together and inseperable. Again, maybe that's just me.

 

Originally posted by Steertalker:
I can shoot my bow sitting down, standing up, from the ground, from a stand, leaning sideways, backwards, whatever.  And just because someone holds doesn't mean the shot can't be run quickly.  Good form is good form and it can be run at the blink of an eye(not snap shooting) or as long as you want.

I never said you couldn't...I know many who shoot with the "hold style" who can. And conversely, just because you shoot very quickly doesn't mean you are "snap shooting", whatever negative conotations you imply included. Ever think those you are including in the snap shooting category are simply running their shots in the blink of an eye as you mentioned? I'm just curious why it is so difficult for you to possibly consider my way is correct for me...and maybe some others...and you way is not, for me, and maybe some others? Bottom line, which there seems to be some evasion on, if you are hitting what you are aiming at, in the "A" percentile...90% or better, you are certainly doing it right. Can you improve, absolutely, there's always room for improvement.

[Rob DiStefano]

Very well said, JC.

[JC]

Chris, so how many people have I not cured of TP? You don't know do you....so again, presumptuous to say the least.I don't claim to have a cure, or any real solid idea of how to solve this etheral problem 100% of the time. But you have no idea who I helped, and saying I don't know what I speak of IS disrespectful. You do not know me, you have never shot beside me, you don't know what I can do with a bow. Neither do I about you, and that's why I have never said something as petty as that about you or anyone else for that matter.

Curtis started this thread about a discussion between he and Charlie Lamb....both of which, through much more acredited sources than myself, certainly know of what they speak, as does Rob. Again, presumptuous to say the least.

I propose, that if you think I feel my methods are being challenged, that you and Brett yourselves feel the same. I have never said anyone's method is wrong, I've continually stated that there are many that will work...not all for everyone but many that will work. Sadly, you are not able to say the same.....