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Author Topic: Release hand pulling away from the face.  (Read 2266 times)

Online Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2021, 12:56:00 AM »
I'll do a follow up here in a few days.  I got a new bow recently and I've been learning it.  Currently, we're getting a lot of smoke from the fire's in Canada, so I'm not spending much time outside shooting.
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Offline Twostrings2

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2021, 08:50:12 AM »
  When you get tired of trying to remember all the things in this thread while you make the shot, try your own words...
  "...I just focused on shooting after that and let the arrows fall where they were going to.  Strangely, they all hit where I wanted them to...."

Online Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2021, 07:46:53 PM »
I tried that twostrings.  It lead to inconsistency and poor shooting.  My background is in defensive pistol, and there are a surprising amount of parallels I see between the discipline involved in shooting a pistol at high level and shooting a stick bow at a high level.
  At least with pistol, a person first has to understand what is "ideal" form and what is proper for the individual shooter ( bodies are shaped different, some of us have injuries preventing certain movements ect).  Once you and preferably a trained instructor has identified the form that's best for you, the only thing left to do is drill until the movements needed to drive the weapon become unconscious.
  I suspect high level archery is something like what I've described. I also suspect I'm somewhere between finding my personal ideal form and drilling until I can't get it wrong.
  I think that's what you are trying to describe.  Maybe you can just naturally do that, you could be one of the people that just pick a spot and hit it and if that's the case I am absolutely jealous. .  But I am not. And most people are not.  I think I'll leave it at that.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Online Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2021, 07:59:30 PM »
Here is the promised update. This is the form I'm taking into the woods this year. This is also the 4th bow I've shot this year, and I actually think that's been helpful.  It forced me to pay attention to my form, and learn how different movements, and things like string torque and grip torque can move arrow impact around.
  My hand still pulls away from my face. Two things have kept it closer. Trying to keep my fingers closed, but letting the string "cut" through them, and adding a little bit of bicep tension. The bicep thing seems like cheating though. It's not a real fix. 
  Here's a question as well.  Is my hand coming away from my face just a result of my arm being bent?  Which is to say; after the shot breaks, if I maintain the angle between my forearm and upper arm, would the whole arm hinging at the shoulder just naturally rotate the hand more out as opposed to straight back? And if that's the case do I even have a problem?

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Offline rhampton

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2021, 02:50:00 PM »
I'm curious about how you're doing now.  Did you ever work our your release?

Online Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2021, 04:01:34 PM »
About the best I can get with my release is that the hand comes straight back in line with the arrow as my elbow rotates around behind me(and that is still when I'm shooting at my best). This tells me I still have some pluck. But I'm at a loss now about how to improve that, or if I even can.
  I'm starting to suspect I may not be capable of the "perfect" release with the hand sliding up along the jawline like you see in Olympian archers.
  With my deer season wrapping up, I might have some time now to try addressing my release again but like I said, I don't know how much there is to gain for the amount effort I'd have to put into it.
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Offline rhampton

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2021, 04:47:03 PM »
I studied your video.  I think your form is mostly good.  In the shot from behind, watch the tip of the bow and you will see that it moves to the right just before the release.  I think you may be anticipating the release and there is some relaxation in your set-up just prior to release--very hard to detect.  I watched the relationship of the bowstring to your nose and you don't seem to be creeping forward with your string fingers.  Where does the string cross the fingers of your hand?  I tried to see if the back of your hand is flat and it seems to be.  What is your concept of what actually happens during the "release"?  What do you see in your mind's eye that happens to your fingers when you release.  I think your bow is torqued at full draw.  If you look at the shot from behind, the bow does not seem to be flat to the target.  I'd really like to see the difference "without the quiver on the bow".  If you draw while looking into a mirror, is the string straight through your fingers or are you twisting the string?  What is your anchor point--again, in your minds eye, where do you think your anchor point is.  In the video, watch your head movement as you anchor and then your head movement after the release.  Looking forward to your response.

Online Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2021, 07:18:17 PM »
Rahmpton
So I don't belive I'm twisting the string at full draw.  I've gone through some effort to avoid that issue.  The string lays behind the joint of my fingers, which is to say I have a fairly deep hook because it has proven to be the most consistent "and least damaging to my fingers).
  In my head this is what I see from anchor through release. My anchor point is in my back where my shoulder blade bottoms out against my spine.  It's been very consistent, my extreme spread over 5 arrows averages 3 to 5 fps over the chronograph in the shop.
  So here's my shot process after getting to anchor.  Bottom out the scapula on the spine, set the shoulder back slightly to lock everything in place, verify sight picture, start pulling the shoulder/scapula/elbow behind me (not away from the target, but to my rear), focus on increasing "pressure" while picturing keeping my fingers closed.  Somewhere in there as I feel "pressure" or tension build in my back between scapula and spine the release will happen.  This specific moment of building pressure is the last "go/no-go" check for my shot, if I'm going to abort it happens here.
  At the actual release, my mind sees the string cut through my fingers, and my fingers just curl in towards my palm as the pressure from the string disappears.
  This whole process from anchor to release takes 3 or 4 seconds.

 That's the most detailed explanation of my release I've ever written out, so forgive me for being long winded. One thing you touched on I'm interested in is my bow being "tourqed".  I'm not sure what you mean by this but, I have noticed some inconsistency with how my bow recoils after the shot. At a guess I think it has to do with how my grip is applying pressure to the bow. I have for sure noticed grip pressure changing my point of impact with arrows.

Again, sorry for the novel, looking forward to any thoughts.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline rhampton

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2021, 12:44:34 PM »
Please don't worry about the length of your replies.  I don't mind reading them and details are necessary.  Your form is so good that we're dealing with minute details.
The reason I asked about the string crossing your fingers, is that I wondered how deep your hook is.  What you described sounds good.  The string "cutting through your fingers" is an interesting concept and sounds good.  I believe a deep hook that allows the back of the hand to be flat and in perfect alignment with the arrow and forearm and will allow the hand to be most relaxed at full draw.  I see the release as letting the had relax instantly--subconsciously and the string moves the limp fingers out of its path with no resisatance. That means the hand will have "no tension" in it throughout the follow-through.  The had continues straight back due to the back tension.   When you say you "picture keeping your fingers closed" are you picturing them being closed after the shot?  I see some adjustment of your head when you get to full draw.  Are you adjusting where your hand is touching your face as part of an anchor point?

When it comes to the bow being torqued, if you look at your video, in the view of your shot from behind, you will see the tip of the bow moves to the right just before you release.  Its so hard to judge from a video, but it looks to me like the bow is slightly twisted by pressure from your bowhand.  That's why is asked if you have tried shooting without the quiver on?  At the release, the bow should jump straight towards the target.  I wonder if the weight of the quiver is causing the bow to rotate slightly upon release instead of moving straight forward.  All of the pressure from the bowhand should be directly behing the bow.  If you are having to put a little pressure in your hand to keep the bow straight due to the weight of the quiver, it might affect the arrow's launch.

Did you try drawing your bow in front of a mirror?  Obviously, setting the camera up in front of you, looking as close to right down the arrow as possible is also very helpful. A coach standing next to you, would be looking at these things, but you have to do it yourself.  The mirror gives you a view you don't normally get and can tell you if what you think you're doing is what you are actually doing and what is in your mind's eye.

Online mgf

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2021, 06:27:36 AM »
About the best I can get with my release is that the hand comes straight back in line with the arrow as my elbow rotates around behind me(and that is still when I'm shooting at my best). This tells me I still have some pluck. But I'm at a loss now about how to improve that, or if I even can.
  I'm starting to suspect I may not be capable of the "perfect" release with the hand sliding up along the jawline like you see in Olympian archers.
  With my deer season wrapping up, I might have some time now to try addressing my release again but like I said, I don't know how much there is to gain for the amount effort I'd have to put into it.

Watch your videos again but pay attention to the movement of the string elbow at the shot rather than the hand.

I can't claim to be an expert but I'd bet money that the elbow movement and the hand movement are a result of the position of your string side scapula. If you get the scapula rotated around toward the spine the forearm will straighten out and follow through will look more like what you would expect.

Remember the only interest we have in what happens after the arrow leaves is in what it can tell us about how we set things up before the arrow left.

We do a lot of talking about "back tension" but I don't think it's a very descriptive term. My take is that to have correct back tension means that the scapula is where it's supposed to be. The last important part is to maintain it through execution of the shot (not collapsing) but getting there is the harder part IMO. The old "arrow in the crook of the elbow" drill is good for working on the release.

One last thought...bringing the string shoulder/scapula around also results in a string hand that's more vertical with less tendency to torque the string.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2021, 07:52:08 AM by mgf »

Online mgf

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2021, 08:05:03 AM »
How do you know if the scapula is where it's supposed to be?

Stand with both arms straight out and your palms facing forward. Your bow arm and back are perfect...but you have to do something with the string arm. Look at the target and bring your string hand to anchor WITHOUT moving your scapula. It's not so easy at first. It might help to have somebody put a hand over the scapula/shoulder blade to help detect movement.

When you're successful at getting to anchor without moving the scapula you will feel some tension in the muscles between your scapula and spine. That's back tension. Now learn to do it with a bow.

Online Sojurn

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Re: Release hand pulling away from the face.
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2021, 10:52:07 AM »
In the video where the bow twitches before release, I'm just shooting my normal shot(normal for that time). This was also before I drilled my release as hard as I have been.  So I think the twitch we're seeing there is an anticipatory action (read; I flinched).  A lot of that gets cleaned up when I "aim" less and focus on increasing tension and follow through, as seen in the last video.
  I have also done some drawing my bow towards a camera, but knowing I'm not going to shoot kind of taints the whole experiment. That being said,  think any movement in the limb tips comes from the string hand settling into my face as my grip on the bow is mostly non existent until I'm actively going through release.
  I'll take some video when I get to the shop next, we just got a bunch of snow here so filming outside isn't ideal.
  Oh and where I move my head as my hand anchors, I think its just a bad habit from how I used to shoot. It's something I'll have to work on.

  Mgf, my scapula is completely bottomed out on my spine. I don't know if I have enough room left to even activate a clicker right now. It's taken me a long time to figure out how to get to this point, but I'm very confident that my back tension is good. This is part of why I'm confused about where my release hand is ending up. It's either some other miniscule part of my set up/form, or my body mechanics just won't allow it. I think both possibilities are equally likely.
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