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Author Topic: Gapping at the bow  (Read 1821 times)

Online the rifleman

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Gapping at the bow
« on: November 27, 2018, 12:01:22 PM »
I've tried the following and have really given each one an honest try, from months to years w results as listed:
Split finger instinctive--- just look at the target--- this worked ok sometimes and not ok others.  I killed some deer and missed some deer.  I never could say why i hit or why i missed after several years.

3 under gap--- worked ok, but i couldn't deal w large gaps and still shot high.  I got my form out of whack trying to chase tight gaps.  Thanks Arne for getting my form back on track.

Extra long arrows 34" and even home cobbled 35".  Cumbersome to tote and heavy for my set ups.

Fixed crawl--- worked great in the deer woods this year, BUT--- with my longbow it seemed that if i did anything wrong in my shot cycle the result was magnified.  Also not allowed at most 3d shoots i attend.

High nocking point--- did lower point on a bit, but since i shoot bows in low 40# range i was worried about hunting with an arrow that wasn't well tuned.

High anchor--- cut gaps in half, but wasn't condusive to maintaining solid form for me.

After watching Jimmy Blackmon's video on aiming references at the riser i put a small spot of tape on the riser and adjusted to get a 18 yd point on.  I have large gaps even w 3 under my gap at this distance was 23".  The spot on the riser lined right up for me and tool care of elevation.  As 3d shoots dont allow marks on the riser, but do allow sideplates 1" above the arrow i extended my sideplate and it is working great w my normal index finger near my mouth anchor.  At this point it seems to be working well for me, so i thought I'd pass it on if others are struggling.

Online McDave

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2018, 01:26:15 PM »
What are you focusing on as you’re aiming? Does your focus shift back and forth between the top of the sideplate and the target, or do you keep your focus on the target, or keep it on the sideplate?
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Online the rifleman

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2018, 01:33:15 PM »
Right now i am a bit more concious of the sideplate, but am trying to be sure my focus, once height is set is on the center of the target.  My hope is that, if i finally stick to this,  i will eventually not need to reference the sideplate at all, but we'll see.

Online McDave

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2018, 02:24:08 PM »
I’ve found that raising the nocking point to lower the POI only works if you’re shooting instinctively.  The higher nocking point causes the nock end of the arrow to be higher than it was before, which means that the arrow ought to impact lower if you keep your bow hand in the same place, which you probably will if you’re shooting instinctively.  However, if you’re using gap, you will see that the point of the arrow is lower than it “should” be, and will raise it up to whatever your gap was, thereby negating the effect of raising the nock point (other than screwing up your tune, as you said, which might lower your POI slightly, but that’s not the way you want to do it).

I just tried your method.  I’m finding it more difficult to see the strike plate than the arrow point, but like you, I sure would like to have a reference I could just use point on, and have the same problems as you do with the fixed crawl.  Maybe as you say, it will come with practice.
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Online the rifleman

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2018, 02:44:28 PM »
McDave, i added a piece of light colored Velcro just above my beavertail sideplate.  The light color shows up very well.  Hopefully the photo will help.  Not pretty, but is seems to help me.  Hope it helps you too.

Online McDave

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2018, 02:50:12 PM »
Yes, it does help, because my strike plate looks about the same as yours, except for the light colored Velcro one you added on top.  I was wondering how you aimed off the top of your strike plate, which is the same as mine, because it’s not high enough to get me the gap I need.  I just hope you’re right about it being okay in a 3D match.  I think I might try a long piece of light Velcro, instead of two pieces, as it would be less obvious.
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Online the rifleman

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2018, 03:12:04 PM »
No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check will be allowed. All arrows must be the same length and weight. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser only. An arrow side plate (if used) may only extend one (1) inch above the arrow. No soft materials that will assist or affect the paradox of the arrow may be used to build up the shelf or strike plate of the riser. Archers may use a hard material on the shelf or on the side of the riser under a hair or leather strip that does not exceed 1/8” thickness.

Here's some of the ibo rules pertaining to longbow class.   Any light colored sideplate should give you what you'll need.  Mine measures right at 1" above the arrow.  I see all kinds of set ups at these shoots including bows with highly contrasting rings on the riser.  I feel my set up meets the spirit of the rules, but I'd probably be safer with a one piece sideplate--- just like the beavertail for tune.  Let me know how it works for you.

Online McDave

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2018, 04:05:59 PM »
You know, if you can lick the problem of aiming off the strike plate this strikes me as a better solution than the fixed crawl, because you avoid having to have your hand separated from the nock, and also a better solution than a high anchor, which creates problems with back tension.  You just anchor and shoot using the best anchor and string grip you can find, and have another aiming reference.
TGMM Family of the Bow

Would someone please make up my mind for me?

Online the rifleman

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2018, 04:21:11 PM »
I agree.  I have been looking for one aiming system that won't require me to do different things whether hunting or 3d.  Im a believer in practicing my 3d shots the same way i will take them in the deer woods.  Ive been my own worst enemy changing things...  I am hopeful that this will be my answer.  Keep me posted on your progress.


Online the rifleman

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2018, 09:32:02 PM »
Perfect!  I do like the idea of something static, unlike different arrow lengths.

Online the rifleman

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 09:28:43 AM »
I just saw a great northern bow add on the back of trad bowhunter.  Their strike plates look like the edge would show up well on a darker bow.

Online McDave

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 10:57:35 AM »
Yes, it looks like the Great Northern plate would work, and from the drawing it appears to be about the right height without having to customize it. In the event you were questioned in a 3D tournament, it would be nice to be using an off the shelf product.  It isn't available separately on their website, but maybe they would sell you one anyway.  If not, Tandy has leather and edge paint so you could make your own, if you wanted to.
TGMM Family of the Bow

Would someone please make up my mind for me?

Online the rifleman

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2018, 07:00:58 PM »
I spent a little more time with the set up today.  Once my form was set a quick rerference to the sideplate confirmed my height and then put all of my focus on the x ring.  It is working well and seems to be ingraining the elevation pretty quickly.

Online McDave

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2018, 08:50:10 PM »
Yes, I’m having the same experience.  The strike plate provides a reference that I didn't have before, and is much easier to use than the point of the arrow when there is a large gap.  But like the point of the arrow, I place it where I think it should be, and then more or less forget about it as I focus on the spot.  I find that I’m never very far off he mark unless I make some mistake like plucking or whatever.
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Online pavan

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2018, 04:37:33 PM »
John, you seem to be doing a lot of side thinking about how to get around aiming aids.  You may be a good candidate for the refined explanation of Howard Hill's aiming technique as explained by Jerry Hill.   $30 for a small book may seem like a lot, but as I have seen with others that had aiming issues, it can be money well spent.  an aiming system that works for groups and the more difficult hunting shots.   I have been doing it for years, it gets automatic to the point that it seems almost instinctive, but my son went from soft ball groups at 20 yards to hard tight groups.  Even my 66 year old wife, worked it out in a few shooting sessions to a point where she packs them without giving it a second thought.  She went from chewing my butt for spending $30 on something that i already knew to saying that it seems that she has always been shooting like that, of course the difference is from shooting cantaloup size groups at 15 yards to shooting softball groups at over 20 yards.
Pavan

Online the rifleman

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2018, 06:58:59 PM »
Thanks Lawrence.  It sounds like the book worked well for your family.  What is the title?  Ive read Howard Hills section on aiming in other posts, but didn't really figure how to apply it.
Im my own worst enemy as I'll shoot for hours at a time trying to push through issues, i tire and my form suffers.  I know i need to focus on fewer, but higher quality shots.

Online the rifleman

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2018, 08:23:46 PM »
Pavan sent you a PM.  Thanks again!  John

Online McDave

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2018, 08:26:18 PM »

As far as complying with tournament rules, the spirit of rules for any given class are usually invented and intended to level the playing field for all shooters in that class.  If shooter 'A' follows the class rules (in this case no use of sighting aids) but shooter 'B' looks for ways to circumvent them without detection, doesn't that sort of rig the competition in favor of shooter B and defeat the purpose of having 'fair play' rules in the first place?  Just sayin'...

What you’re saying is true to the extent that if shooter A figures out a way to aim that is more effective than using the point of the arrow, and doesn’t violate the rules in doing so, then he has an advantage.  However, I disagree that he is defeating the purpose of the rules, if he is obeying the rules.  The rules can’t very well dictate what you do with your eyes while you are shooting, and if you use your eyes more effectively than the next guy, then that’s life, I guess.  In this case, John isn’t keeping this idea to himself.  He’s putting it out there for all to see, and use if they want to.  So I don’t see how this can be considered an unfair advantage if anyone, me for example, is afforded the same opportunity to use the idea as John is.  If John or me or anyone else breaks the rules, they should be called on it; if not, either other people can use it too or they can change the rules.
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Online McDave

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Re: Gapping at the bow
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2018, 11:00:11 PM »
IMO, even technically obeying rules can still result in the defeat of their purpose  The obvious rule objective is to NOT use ANY sighting aids, and short rule narratives can't be expected to cover every possible means of preventing discovery and application of loopholes if someone tries hard enough.  intended to do? 

I don’t think this is a correct interpretation of the rules.  The arrow point can always be used as a sighting aid under the rules, and three under is allowed under the rules, knowing that it facilitates the use of the point as a sighting aid.  Specific sighting aids have been prohibited under the rules, such as string walking, and it is incumbent on us to respect the rules of whatever tournament we decide to enter.  But if a specific sighting aid has not been contemplated by the rules, we should feel free to use it unless and until it is prohibited.

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with my doing whatever I can to avoid being called on a rules violation.  It would ruin my day if anyone ever called me on a rules violation, whether I prevailed or not. So if I can avoid anyone raising the question by using a stock strike plate instead of something I made myself, then I’ll do it.  I’m not out to flaunt the rules.  I’m just out to win....fairly.
TGMM Family of the Bow

Would someone please make up my mind for me?

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