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Author Topic: Set the site picture and watch to hold  (Read 9114 times)

Offline PrimitivePete

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Set the site picture and watch to hold
« on: October 19, 2018, 01:47:29 PM »
So I have been shooting for at least 40 years and I'll admit I have been a snap shooter for a long time. I took a year off from hunting and shooting just to step back and realize if I still wanted to do this. And happy to say the hunger is back. I have a question for everyone who has experience with Joel Turners methods. My question is what do you recommend you can do to master the very first part of his teaching, set the site picture and watch to hold. I have a very strong anchor and I have a smooth draw to anchor. I shoot fairly straight up, slight cant, and I shoot split. My problem is that when I get to anchor and I transition the arrow to my site picture it is impossible to hold any longer. I get to the site picture and off she goes. Remarkably I'm not off my mark but I know the level of control could be much better. I have tried the mantra but feel without a trigger I rush through it if I even get started. Thank you in advance of any suggestion you can make me.

Online McDave

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2018, 02:37:02 PM »
You don’t sound like you have target panic; you just have a habit you need to break of releasing as soon as you hit anchor, if you want to transition to draw and hold rather than snap shoot. To do this stand close to a target and draw and hold with your eyes closed. Do this for a while until you don’t have a compulsion to release as soon as you hit anchor. If you have target panic, it will take more than this to break it, but this might work if all you have is a habit.
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Online McDave

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2018, 03:02:52 PM »
When I said “a while” I don’t want to mislead you. They say it takes 60 days to change a habit, so maybe I should have said “quite a while.” Also, nothing wrong with snap shooting; we have a lot of successful snap shooters on here. But also nothing wrong with changing to draw and hold, if that’s what you want to do.
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Online Jock Whisky

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2018, 11:43:13 PM »
Had the same issue and have talked with Joel re this. His advice was to "use aggression". It took a while but I gradually managed to draw, anchor and just watch the target and then let down. I found it was important for me to make sure my alignment was right and that my back tension was set. (Maybe the same thing).  Dave it correct when he says do it with your eyes closed. You could also look at the arrow on the shelf rather than the target to get the idea of not shooting. But sooner or later you will have to look at the target.

I've got to the point where I can draw, look at the target, maintain tension for a while but I'm still working on the let down part. Sometimes I can other times I just have an overwhelming urge to see the arrow fly 'cause it's fun.

You didn't say how heavy your bow was but you might try it with a lighter bow too.
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Online the rifleman

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2018, 10:37:50 PM »
"without a trigger i rush through it".  There's your answer--- add a trigger--- grip sear, clicker--- tell yourself that the final part of the shot is the most important part, then focus on expanding and/ or working through your trigger.  This validates the final step of the process and should slow you down enough to complete the process.  I agree with those that advocate draw, aim, let down.  This reinforces that you're in control of the shot.  Good luck.

Offline bloodtrailin

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2018, 05:08:47 PM »
in line with what Rifleman said you certainly do have to have something to occupy your mind to get and hold the sight picture. Your job is far from over once you have engaged the correct alignment and sight picture. This is the most critical time IMO to stay focused and pull through the shot. I follow Joel's teaching and its what got me over exactly what you are speaking of. you have to anchor the conscious mind to what causes execution  of  a trigger. what I mean by that is focusing what movement it takes to execute whatever trigger you are more comfortable with. For me feather to nose works well as well as a string clicker. But remember it only works by having an ingrained shot process first, then during the process when its time to transition to that movement that sets off the trigger that's all you think about, let the sight picture take care of itself. After all, at that point you should be done with anchor, aiming, alignment, the only then left to do is shoot the arrow. Which seems harmless right, but for myself and as with you it seems that is where you begin to short circuit and before long your backing further in the process. Like the man Joel says it doesn't work for you, you have to work for it....GOOD LUCK!!

Offline Wolftrail

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2018, 11:26:15 PM »
I think a lot of us have  that problem.  I'am slowing down but it takes time to re-program the brain to hold aim for a few seconds and concentrate.  I know when I do all things correctly the arrows basically go where I'm aiming ,  well a small pie plate anyway instead of having a difference of 18" between 4 arrows in every direction.  Snap shooting does make my grouping suffer big time.  :tongue:

Online Jim Casto Jr

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2018, 06:54:53 AM »
40 years?!  Welcome to the club.   :(

Bail and bridge is the only "cure" for your classic case of target panic that I'm aware of.  I'd suggest starting at about three feet for a few days.  Draw, anchor, set your back muscles keeping tension in your back, focus on aiming, then let down.  Back up a bit as your confidence grows, but NEVER advance beyond your control.  After you do that for about three weeks.  You can move on to the next phase.
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Offline PrimitivePete

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2018, 03:09:36 PM »
Thank you everyone, great suggestions, I really appreciate the responses

Offline YosemiteSam

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 06:50:22 PM »
Can't say I have anywhere near 40 years of time behind the string.  But I have similar problems.  A clicker has become a necessity for me.  Even then, I'll let one escape every now and then & have to kick myself to complete the shot appropriately.

For shooting without a clicker, I shoot left-handed and use the back of the point as my "trigger."  I'm not as reliable as with a clicker.  But it's good enough to not get too frustrated.  Groups certainly open up, though.  For hunting, I don't trust my shooting without a clicker.  It's a crutch but I'm admittedly a bit lame in that regard.
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Offline Asummerlin

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2018, 03:43:14 PM »
I struggled with this same situation for close to 10 years I finally got smart and went to a pawn shop and bought a cheap bow that drew around 25lbs and added a psychological trigger and I was surprised that within a few weeks of slowly going through my shot process I was able to draw my 55lbs recurve back to anchor, hold the sight picture on target and concentrate on the spot I wanted to hit for as long as I wanted to without releasing the shot if I didn't want to. I payed very close attention to everything Joel Turner said and watched him go through his shot process and told myself if he can do it, I can do it. Now I can pretty much make any shot I want to or if I don't like something, I can let the arrow down and start over. Persistence and a strong love of archery will get you through it and just remember to achieve shot control, you practice shot control every time you draw back.

Online pavan

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2018, 05:15:54 PM »
" I shoot fairly straight up, slight cant, and I shoot split."  My son, who can repeat what i told him over 30 years ago word for word, says that I didn't teach him things and he had to figure lots of stuff out for himself, is a very very good shot, but he always claims that something is always just a little off.  I got the new little book from Jerry Hill, I have preached this same split as written by Hill for years to him, but he claims that he is more instinctive.  He read the book, recognized the chapters that were reprints of what Howard Hill wrote and then Jerry Hills personal process of developing it.  My son grabbed one of my bows to try what he just read. In a space of 100 or so shots, went from fat softball groups at 20 to 24 yards, to finishing with shooting repeated feather ripping groups at what most would call a snap shooters tempo, with a few slow tempo shots mixed in. 
  Sometimes changing everything you have done for many years can be extremely trying and difficult, when just certain acknowledgements and a mental change with a few fine tuned particulars can be a much easier and shorter route.   My son stated, "I'm impressed, it already seems like I have been aiming this way for years, it's so automatic."   Anyone watching his final four groups where he destroyed my new set of 1918s was snap shooting.  It was fluid, fast and refined, I am not so sure I would call that snap shooting.
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Offline Sam McMichael

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2018, 05:35:04 PM »
At one point, I was actually counting out loud to two before releasing. I felt silly, but it worked.
Sam

Online McDave

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2018, 02:42:39 PM »
“I have a very strong anchor and I have a smooth draw to anchor. I shoot fairly straight up, slight cant, and I shoot split. My problem is that when I get to anchor and I transition the arrow to my site picture it is impossible to hold any longer. I get to the site picture and off she goes.”

To me, this is not a description of someone who has target panic.  Someone who has target panic is compelled to release before they can aim and anchor (or anchor and aim, depending on how they want to do it).  This is a description of someone who snap shoots, which, as has been pointed out in other posts, is a legitimate shooting method which has been used successfully by Howard Hill, Terry Green, and many others.  If he wants to change it to some other method where he holds longer, that’s fine, and maybe he’ll end up shooting better that way; maybe not.  But anyone who has learned to release as soon as they anchor is not going to be able to change to anchor and hold overnight, just like you can’t start shooting accurately left handed overnight if you’ve always shot right handed.   It’s probably worth trying, as he obviously wants to know if he can shoot better that way, but he’ll have to break the habit of releasing as soon as he touches anchor to find out, which is different from curing target panic.
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Online pavan

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2018, 03:36:52 PM »
Of course, anyone can set any goal or parameter that they want.  There are some that like to call anything that does not have a 2 to 10 second hold TP or spontaneous snap.  Some acknowledge an aiming reference while others do not.  The goal of the individual is what makes the choices or feels the need to make choices and changes.  For those that shoot fluid and are happy with their instinctive results, if it ain't broke, leave it alone.   Beyond that, if the individual is not happy with his results, the choices are numerous.  I have seen perfectly good fluid instinctive shooters develop full blown out of control TP when trying to make things overly complicated for themselves.  They ended up being far too self critical and ended up quitting traditional archery, when all they really needed to do was to spruce up the form and method they were all ready using. 
Pavan

Online the rifleman

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2018, 09:21:35 AM »
Getting solid form and repeatable shot process is first step.

Then figure out an aiming system that works for you.

Then figure out a way to finalize the shot that results in proper expansion and solid bowarm.  I find i need a step in between-- i.e. grip sear, feather to nose--- something that reminds me to give proper care to executing the shot.  This is the hard part for me.

Online pavan

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2018, 12:48:43 PM »
The shot is not completed until the follow through is completed.  My follow through needs to begin with a hard release, the follow through is completed when I take my hand away from my face.
Pavan

Online David Mitchell

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2019, 12:57:17 PM »
I am on day 55 of Jim Casto's TP program.  No need for a clicker or any other such and I have had bad TP for years to the point that even a clicker didn't control it.  Jim's program has also helped with some other form issues.  I'm happy as a dead pig in the sunshine. :goldtooth:
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Offline Wolftrail

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Re: Set the site picture and watch to hold
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2019, 08:41:34 PM »

Posted by: Jim Casto Jr.......
 "Draw, anchor, set your back muscles keeping tension in your back, focus on aiming, then let down" 

 One other thing I was neglecting to do was keeping a deep hook on the string,  when I was using the fingertips the string was prematurely slipping off.

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