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Author Topic: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!  (Read 689 times)

Offline Trumpkin the Dwarf

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Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« on: July 29, 2018, 12:10:09 AM »
Not sure where to start with this question, but I would like some advice specifically about the final piece of the shot. I've built my routine out to be a 3 step process:
1. DRAW -  in which the arrow is brought to my face, all reference points are met, and I ensure my shoulder blades are pulling down and together. I get nice bone on bone alignment, and my upper body turns into a single unit that moves as a whole.
2. AIM -  pretty simple really, I look at the spot I want to hit while maintaining back tension, until everything gets really steady and still.
3. PULL (AKA the Problem)- While I'm a Joel Turner fanboy, I don't do well with psychotriggers, so this step messes with me. Some days I slip into this weird daze where I am gently expanding and the shot flies great. I also know from experience my shot collapses if I don't have some focus on my back tension in this step. But a lot of the time I either get hung up on pulling, and my fingers get really grippy on the string, or I overpower this piece, and throw my whole body alignment off by the violence of the release. Obviously this doesn't lend itself to repeatable accuracy.

The best shooters I know on here don't use a psychotrigger, but they have this expansion/shot triggering thing down. I can't figure out the missing mental/physical piece to get over this hump. I just don't quite understand it. If I think too hard about pulling/triggering the shot I wind up plucking the string. If I don't think about it, and just make my aim really good, I start to collapse over time. In short, sometimes I collapse, sometimes I overpower the shot, and sometimes I overthink the pulling piece and pluck the string. Oh, and sometimes I hit a smooth groove where I shoot lights out.

I know how to repeat steps 1 and 2. My base is there. Now I want to become a shooting machine, but I need help understanding this step better. Arne, if you read this, I really value your advice on this. I'm afraid I haven't found understanding in your youtube videos yet. :help:


Malachi C.

"Scar" (retired) Toelke Whip 62" ~70# @ 33"
Unnamed Toelke SS 64" 64# @ 33"

Offline Gentle-Savage

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2018, 03:24:56 AM »
 :goldtooth:

Jeff cavanaugh has a really good video on this, about having an aftershot anchor point that really helped me on this. Look him up, he doesn't have too many videos to sort through
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Online moebow

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2018, 08:25:40 AM »
"PULL (AKA the Problem)- While I'm a Joel Turner fanboy, I don't do well with psychotriggers, so this step messes with me. Some days I slip into this weird daze where I am gently expanding and the shot flies great. I also know from experience my shot collapses if I don't have some focus on my back tension in this step. But a lot of the time I either get hung up on pulling, and my fingers get really grippy on the string, or I overpower this piece, and throw my whole body alignment off by the violence of the release."

You kind of name your own solution here; "Some days I slip into this weird daze where I am gently expanding and the shot flies great."  This is your key.  BUT, it takes some concentration to make it happen like this.

Many shooters allow their thoughts to start looking like a kid's sparkler on the 4th of July.  Bright sparks (thoughts) flying in every direction.  The harder you try to think about this, the brighter the sparks and the less direction.

Try an approach like this.  Get your first 2 steps done, at this point I'd add that if your REALLY have bone on bone, and are maintaining it, you CANNOT collapse.  So get your bone on bone, set your aim (by WHATEVER method you use) then ALL your thought concentration is on your back and maintaining your bone on bone.  Now everyone thinks differently so try and then choose one of these thoughts to conclude the shot.

1. Think "close the car door" using your string arm elbow.
2. For me, I like the thought, " lean on the wall harder with the back of the string shoulder."  As I draw, it feels like I am leaning on a wall on the string shoulder blade.  The feel of that "lean" gets more intense as I come to full draw (that's loading the back).  Then when ready to shoot, I lean on the wall harder and the shot happens.
3. I personally don't care for this one too much but it works form some folks.  That is to move to a "third anchor."  That would be your follow through position.

In all 3 of the above suggestions, DO NOT think about what your string hand is doing -- it is a non player.  IF your thoughts go to the hand or anywhere else, you are thinking about the wrong thing.  This is so easy to do (think about the wrong thing) and so disruptive to a good shot.

In your description, it sounds like you have found it on occasion but that is what you need to try to repeat.  These are blank bale and blind bale exercises to really learn how to direct your thoughts to the place that works best FOR YOU.

I see this often with folks I coach and it is a tough one.  Controlling your thoughts is the toughest part of archery.  Those that learn to do it are the top shooters we all admire. Those that don't or can't are the rest of us.  :biglaugh:

Arne

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Offline Trumpkin the Dwarf

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2018, 10:23:51 AM »
Thanks Arne! There's a lot there to chew on.

Re. bone-on-bone and collapsing, your comment made me realize that some days (or just shot to shot) I'm settling for close enough, instead of correct alignment. I'll have to work on insisting on perfection in that area. :deadhorse:

Regarding the rest of your comments, it sounds like I have the right idea. Which is unfortunate, because I screw it up SO frequently.  :banghead:

I had this issue when I played baseball. To throw a baseball accurately you can't think about the process of it, or the throw is forced, rather than fluid. I tended to concentrate so hard on the action of throwing that I'd throw it in the dirt or over the other players head.

In the same way, I quickly find myself concentrating too hard on the expansion and overpowering it or getting stuck at full draw and not able to let go... Maybe thinking about a different piece of the expansion would help. I've tried imagining closing the door with my elbow, crushing a golf ball between my shoulder blades, and pulling my elbow through with my back/tricep. All of which had inconsistent results over time.

I'm going to figure this out though! I've spent too many years being done in by my mind, and it's time to learn control.
Malachi C.

"Scar" (retired) Toelke Whip 62" ~70# @ 33"
Unnamed Toelke SS 64" 64# @ 33"

Online McDave

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2018, 10:44:31 AM »
“For me, I like the thought, " lean on the wall harder with the back of the string shoulder."  As I draw, it feels like I am leaning on a wall on the string shoulder blade.  The feel of that "lean" gets more intense as I come to full draw (that's loading the back).  Then when ready to shoot, I lean on the wall harder and the shot happens.”

This seems similar to the approach that Rick Welch taught me.  Not exactly identical, because Arne imagines leaning on a wall with the back of the string shoulder, whereas Rick teaches imagining pressing against a wall or a pole with the back of the string elbow.  Rick takes it one step further, by starting with actually practicing pressing against a wall or pole with the back of the string elbow and then shooting the shot.  He recommends doing this every day for several weeks, to get the thought firmly ingrained in the mind.  His teaching technique in general is to wander around shooting at random targets, so there is not always a wall or pole around to press against, so in the beginning he reinforces this technique by pressing with his hand against the back of the student’s elbow in the field.  After pressing against something real for several weeks, it is not hard to form the mental image of pressing against something imaginary when you have rotated to the maximum extent possible.  I’ve never tried jumping right in to imagining pressing against something without starting by pressing against something real, and maybe that works too; however, I think that having something real to press against helped me to form the correct mental image.
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Online moebow

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2018, 12:37:44 PM »
Your description Dave sounds like my "close the car door."  If you get out of the car with two full bags of stuff in your arms, how do you close the car door?  You place your elbow on the door then with a quick flip of the shoulder you lever the elbow around (without loosing the forearm on the bag) giving enough motion to the elbow to swing the door closed.

I really hate this thought though!  "crushing a golf ball between my shoulder blades!!!!"  That, to me, implies totally upsetting the stable platform formed by setting the bow shoulder, arm and bow hand into a stable beam.  In "bone on bone" that totally upsets the solid (unmoving) structure of the bow side of the form.  Although this is a very common suggestion, I submit that it is destructive to good execution.

Folks, very often, we get so concerned with "doing something" that we loose sight of the fact that we need to "let it happen.  RELAX!!

Arne
11 H Hill bows
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USA Archery, Level 4 NTS Coach

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Offline Trumpkin the Dwarf

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2018, 02:46:00 PM »
After pressing against something real for several weeks, it is not hard to form the mental image of pressing against something imaginary when you have rotated to the maximum extent possible.  I’ve never tried jumping right in to imagining pressing against something without starting by pressing against something real, and maybe that works too; however, I think that having something real to press against helped me to form the correct mental image.

Doh! Somehow I never even thought of trying the real thing... Good thought Dave, thank you!

I really hate this thought though!  "crushing a golf ball between my shoulder blades!!!!"  That, to me, implies totally upsetting the stable platform formed by setting the bow shoulder, arm and bow hand into a stable beam.  In "bone on bone" that totally upsets the solid (unmoving) structure of the bow side of the form.  Although this is a very common suggestion, I submit that it is destructive to good execution.

Arne

Point well taken Arne, it has been banished from my mind and vocabulary! Thanks again for your help here. This discussion is very insightful.
Malachi C.

"Scar" (retired) Toelke Whip 62" ~70# @ 33"
Unnamed Toelke SS 64" 64# @ 33"

Offline Twostrings2

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2018, 08:17:12 AM »
  If you're gonna chew, chew.  If you're gonna shoot, shoot.

Offline Trumpkin the Dwarf

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2018, 06:05:18 PM »
  If you're gonna chew, chew.  If you're gonna shoot, shoot.

I don't see your point. Maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't seem very helpful.
Malachi C.

"Scar" (retired) Toelke Whip 62" ~70# @ 33"
Unnamed Toelke SS 64" 64# @ 33"

Offline Trumpkin the Dwarf

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2018, 06:27:43 PM »
Arne, you're awesome!!!  :shaka:

Thanks so much for your help. I've been working on making sure I get bone on bone alignment(you're right, it is hard to collapse), and concluding the shot by gently pressing an imaginary doorbell with my elbow.

Everything clicked today, and I mean EVERYTHING... my whole shot was rocking! A side effect of the redoubled emphasis on my alignment: I started hitting a bit high. My anchor point had been drifting up my face. Once I got the new drop dialed in it was scary! :scared:

Thanks again for being so willing to talk everyone through this stuff!
Malachi C.

"Scar" (retired) Toelke Whip 62" ~70# @ 33"
Unnamed Toelke SS 64" 64# @ 33"

Online moebow

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2018, 07:21:19 PM »
 :shaka:
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Offline Twostrings2

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2018, 04:27:25 PM »
   Trumpkin,
 
 
  A lot to think about while trying to shoot an arrow...
 
    "If I think too hard about pulling/triggering the shot I wind up plucking the string. If I don't think about it, and just make my aim really good, I start to collapse over time. In short, sometimes I collapse, sometimes I overpower the shot, and sometimes I overthink the pulling piece and pluck the string."


  And now more...
 
    "Thanks Arne! There's a lot there to chew on."
   
   
     My point was it may be just too hard to shoot a bow well while consciously going through all the things you mentioned in your posts.



Online moebow

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2018, 04:44:10 PM »
Two,  The "thinking" part is your initial practice and YES, you HAVE to think about all new things.  After a while, your "thinking" will become more automatic and you will "think" less and execute more.  IF you don't practice "stuff" enough then you will always have to "think" about it and it will not be natural or automatic.

DO NOT!!!!! Confuse LEARNING and PRACTICE with accomplishment!

I understand exactly where you are coming from but again, we all need to walk (think) before we run.

Arne
11 H Hill bows
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4 James Berry bows
USA Archery, Level 4 NTS Coach

Are you willing to give up what you are; to become what you could be?

Online McDave

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2018, 09:09:23 PM »
Whenever the mind and body need to perform a coordinated activity, there are three steps to the learning process: cognitive, experiential, and inspirational.  The cognitive phase is where we learn the “rules” for doing the activity, which we learn in words, and repeat these words to ourselves as we learn the movements.  Words are a crude tool, and can only get us to approximate what needs to be done. But this can put us miles ahead of someone who doesn’t have the words, even though we still have miles to go.  In the experiential phase, we repeat the movement many times until we no longer need the words.  Our bodies figure out more efficient ways to do the movement than we could describe in words.  Sometimes our bodies figure out less efficient ways to do the movement instead, and then we have to go back to the cognitive phase to correct our course.  After bouncing back and forth between the cognitive and experiential phases for a while, there will be a moment when everything comes together: the inspirational phase.  Be ready for it, grab it when it comes, and try to remember everything you can about it, not in words, because words are insufficient, but in movements and feelings.  The inspirational phase may not last, but once you’ve experienced it, you know it’s possible, and you can probably find it again.
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Offline Trumpkin the Dwarf

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Re: Need Help with Shot Conclusion!
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2018, 11:49:46 AM »
McDave, that is a fantastic explanation of how my learning process has gone!
Malachi C.

"Scar" (retired) Toelke Whip 62" ~70# @ 33"
Unnamed Toelke SS 64" 64# @ 33"

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