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Author Topic: Moose no kill zone  (Read 3318 times)

Offline Dan Worden

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2004, 11:46:00 AM »
Good timely retrieve there Skinner.   :thumbsup:

Offline ray11dowski

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2004, 07:36:00 PM »
J from Denmark, Dont know if all this got settled or not but I got curious. I never hunted Moose and probably never will. I went to Google typed in 'Moose vital hit. The first web site up was New Hampshire fish and game. They have a pretty good diagram of what they consider a vital hit zone on a Moose.Good shooting 1,2,3,4, shoot Ray L

Offline AkDan

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2004, 10:25:00 PM »
cow moose hunt starts TOMORROW for me, yahoo, the first hunt of the year.

Offline Jaberwok

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2004, 07:43:00 AM »
Seen it, done it, been there - not back yet!

- Je suis tomber - mais je ne renverse pas ma bière!    :D    -

Offline AkDan

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2004, 07:49:00 AM »
Good stuff Jaber...man dunno why I didnt think of looking there LOL.  

I know of another bull shot last year with an arrow angling in, just above the cavity right behind the scalpel that did not bring it down.  The bull was shot last year by a buddy of mine.  I would assume the wound was last years also.  That makes 2 that I know of, one of which I've personally witnessed.

two things the site forgot to add:

1 tenderloin feeds 4 avg sized adults
1 back strap is 3+ FEET long

I feel my belly rumbling......  :)  , Season starts at SUNUP....wooohooo!!!!  (can ya tell, I aint been to bed yet, my legs are now bald after touching up 2 knives and 9 broadheads, and I am just plum stoked!)

Offline Coldfingers

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2004, 07:59:00 AM »
Danny,

Forgot you have a cow tag.

Want to float Chena under moonlight? Oughta tag out quickly (course, that would spoil everything)

Could not sleep myself. Massive swelling in neck and weewee dragging in dirt.

Scotty
Porquipines are peacefull creatures, but God still saw fit to give them quills.

Offline AkDan

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2004, 08:10:00 AM »
Hey Scotty,

Sorry I woke ya up the other day, thought you'd be up LOL.

Sure I'd be glad too, you want to use my raft or take the canoes out?  

Looks like an all niter for me  ;) .  Got the Helle's spooky sharp.

Whats up with the neck????

Offline Douglas DuRant

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2004, 08:10:00 AM »
I would never call mine wee, let alone twice! ;o}
Scotty, Wee met at TBOF 2 years ago while watching a Fred Bear movie. Sure would be nice to hunt Moose up your way one day. I suspect mine would be wee if an old bull came charging into a call though.

Sure would like to hear more from Alaska@large.

Offline Coldfingers

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2004, 08:32:00 AM »
Danny,

Got the skiff loaded and ready for water. Neck swollen from rut, wife avoiding me. Was catching up on sleep from loss due to pastoral duties.

Doug, I remember you. I would suggest talking with Deerfly sometime after the end of Septembrrr to see if it is worth the trip. He oughta be busy practicing shooting in a parka with mittens on right about now. Scheduled for last ten days of month to get cold, wet, and perhaps very lucky.

Scotty
Porquipines are peacefull creatures, but God still saw fit to give them quills.

Offline AkDan

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2004, 08:34:00 AM »
"Neck swollen from rut, wife avoiding me"

And you want me in the boat with you???  Hmm, hope you aint resorted to wallowing in the garden yet hehe.  

What time are you thinking of getting together?

Offline Douglas DuRant

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2004, 11:31:00 AM »
I look forward to hearing Deerfly's report. I have been up close with a bull moose in CO once, while hunting elk, but that is the only time.

Good lucky to you this year Chillydidgets, and You too Sleepless in Alaska. I leave for CO Friday if the dang hurricane doesn't come my way instead.

Offline Coldfingers

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2004, 02:32:00 PM »
Danny,

Got on little bull this am but did not shoot because I was worried about that "no kill zone" LOL!

Actually got busted trying to belly crawl through that slash that DNR left in the grouse habitat in Heritage Park. Very nice way to start the season.

If you check this thread before you check message machine, call me on cell. Am working a few hours each day while moose rest their aching sides.

Doug, if you get to CO quick enough, the hurricane will not catch you. Hope all goes well for all the FineFloridaFolks that have hosted my winter escapes.
Porquipines are peacefull creatures, but God still saw fit to give them quills.

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2004, 12:02:00 AM »
Hello All,

I don't get as much time to keep up with the Gang post as I would like.  Don't know how long this thread has been going, but it's a great one!

I'm just heading 'outback' for another month (hope to get away tomorrow morning or the next day at the latest), so it will be a while before I get to check again but ... here's my penny's worth.

Though some might frown on the way it has to be done ... and I don't count it as any of my 'bowhunting' ... I've found that it is not the successful hits from which one learns the most.  It is the unsuccessful hit which hold the most valuable information.

When everything with a shot goes 'acording to plan' it's just one more statistic of a successful shot, with a little information about the set-up's capabilities.  When a well placed shot doesn't work one has an opportunity to look for the reason(s).  Why did what should have been a lethal hit become a failure?.

Whenever the opportunity exist, for testing purposes, I like to have an arrow shot backed by a rifle shot - placed remote from the arrow hit.  This I like to use in any situation other than 'near-perfect' arrow placement with obvious deep penetration.  Careful examination of the wound channel gives one a chance to examine what tissues the arrow hit, and what damage was done.

The information thus gained is then 'real time/real world'.  It is not just theory, it's an actual event that hapened with a real hit on a real animal.

Once there is sufficient information on these types of (unsuccesful) shots, one gradually develops a 'data based image' of what is happening.  Only then can one begin to theorize the 'why', and guage the likelyhood of events by the statistics.  One must look at all the subsequently developed 'theories' over and over again, and let the statistics guide the 'conclusions'.

Much 'common knowledge' and 'simple logic' - and many of my own 'pet befiefs' - have already been consumed by the 'fureous facts' of the hard data.  Though I had several years of (somewhat) successful hunting with it, I even lost my "childhood's" 'favorite broadhead' to the 'hard facts' - it fails to perform well on hard tissue (bone) hits.

It is unfortunate that most bowhunters never get the opportunity to see the results of an unsuccessful hit.  For most, the unsuccessful hit is a lost animal.  The reason it was lost?  That becomes 'speculated on' but, in truth, is unknown.

Often the 'lost animal' gets put down to being just a "bad hit".  Some tend to lay the blame on the degree of blood trail ... "good hit, but couldn't find the animal - not enough blood".  They usually then lay the blame onto the size/shape/type.

The data, thus far, does not bare out these 'reasons' as being the MOST LIKELY REAL CAUSE for a lost animal.  The 'numbers' tend to place degree of blood trail as being more dependent on: (1) the location of the entrance wound; (2) the presence or absence and location of any exit wound, and; (3) what tissues/organs/vessels were hit in-between.  The data, to date, (from the 'bow killed' animals only) shows little or no "statistically significant" correlation between the size, cut area or number of broadhead blades and the degree of blood trail.

According to the data, the number one cause of a well placed hit being non-lethal is (by far) inadequate penetration.  The data also says that the number one cause of inadequate penetration is broadhead failure.  (The BROADHEAD testing is mostly done with fairly heavy bows and high arrow mass, so it would be difficult to lay any lack of penetration on 'inadequate arrow energy'.)

Though I don't yet have the data to conclusively delineate it, I THINK the number two cause of inadequate penetration is overall arrow resistance (the 'arrow drag factor'), and third is poor arrow flight.  Those two factors might well be 'flip-floped' though.  I do not know for sure.  Both, though, are very important to hunting arrow performance.

All that now said, (I know, I know.  I get started and just can't stop.  Forgive me, but the formal collection of this data has consumed the last twenty years on my life.) I'll get back to the question at hand.

I will emphatically state that the 'dead space' below the spine and above the lungs DOES exist.  In the testing I've hit this space more than a few times.

The dead-space can be several inches wide on some of the larger species of animals.  It is EXTREMELY easy to pass ANY broadhead available through the 'dead space' on a sizable animal.  Even on whitetails, the space is sufficiently large to pass a 'super-size' broadhead through when Mr. Murphy decides to lend a hand.  It also appears that the size of this space is in a constant flux as the lungs inflate and deflate.

Yes, there is a major blood system just 'sub-spinal', but it is well protected from every direction by the spine, spinal processes and and the arches of the rib junctures.  Perfect structural formations to cause arrows to deflect, and tough enough to reduce the liklehood of penetration.  (ANOTHER good reason for 'extra arrow umph' above that needed for a classic 'broadside chest shot', and for using super-tough broadheads/arrows that penetrate with minimum resistance.  To get a sub-spinal vessel one generatlly has to 'break bone'.  Thus the reason for using broadheads that demonstrate maximum bone-penetrating capabilities.)  The 'dead space' in question is below the sub-spinal blood net and above the lungs.

Not only do arrows pass through this space, rifle bullets frequently pass through (even expanding bullets) with no lethal damage to the animal (though the 'shock' to the spinal cord from a rifle MAY cause the animal to fall on such a hit, they often recover very quickly, regaining their feet, and they're off!).  During my guiding time in Africa we had several instances of taking previously (gun) wounded animals that had been hit in this 'dead space' ... sometimes days after the initial wound.

The bottom line (arrow or bullet) is to try and keep the hits placed such that they traverse the center of the lungs - and with enough penetration to AT LEAST get both lungs ... using a sharp broadhead that retains it structural integrity throughout the entire depth of the penetration ... and I DO like to factor in extra for Mr. Murphy, just as much as I can!

Ancedotally, in the late 1950's a deer was taken on a lease I was hunting near Wheelock, Texas which had a broken-off wooden shaft through this 'dead space'.  The shaft had been sheared off at chest-wall level, and was well sealed off by scar tissue, the entrance and exit wounds unnoticable until one looked specifically for them.

The deer appeared healthy in all respects.

Woody, you're on the right track.  Any broadhead that becomes damaged (in any way) GREATLY increases the chance of the hit being non-lethal.  A great broadhead should tough enough to resist damage (not even a 'chipped' or 'rolled' edge) on any body tissues they hit.

Broadheads that resist bending on a rock, cinder block or brick wall don't impress me at all.  I have seen heads that held up perfectly when repeatedly shot directly into concret walls bend/break on living animal bone.  (Also,'dead bone' has different characteristics than 'living bone'.)  The impact angle of a shot and the 'arched' or curved surfaces of a heavy bone have proved to be tougher on broadheads than concret!

Broadhead cut angle is a big factor, both in the nature of the wound and in the arrow's overall 'drag factor.  The cut angle is also directly related to the mechanical advantage of the broadhed.

Well, "Ya'll show-nuff knew how to set this old fella off!"  I wish I had more time to expound, but have to get some work on the 4x4 completed today, and to finish sharpening and packing for the trip!

Keep up the work Woody!  Bowhunters need heaps more 'real data' available to them ... and a lot fewer ancedotal stories and advertising hype passed along as fact!

Ed

Offline ray11dowski

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2004, 01:39:00 AM »
Dr. Ashby , Would the Howard Hill Head 160 gr.or the Ribtek 190 Gr. Fit the bill. Good shooting 1,2,3,4,shoot Ray L

Offline Coldfingers

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2004, 03:33:00 AM »
Dr. Ashby,

Thanks for the imput and your time. It certainly explains the loss of a bear that was still going the next day after what looked like a very good hit (even on the video replays)

Please refrain from patting Woody on the back too much. Makes him insufferable 8*)

Best of luck on your journey. God's Grace.

Scotty
Porquipines are peacefull creatures, but God still saw fit to give them quills.

Offline Douglas DuRant

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #75 on: September 02, 2004, 07:54:00 AM »
Thanks for your experience, and putting it down for us Dr. Ashby. Very enlightening. and I always enjoy reading what you take the time to post here.

Offline J from Denmark

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2004, 03:44:00 AM »
:notworthy:    :notworthy:    :notworthy:  

Jacob

Offline Pete W

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Re: Moose no kill zone
« Reply #77 on: September 03, 2004, 09:21:00 PM »
Every  Medical Doctor or Vet. that I asked the same question too advised me that there is no space there.If there was a space the lungs would not function.
When we open up an animal we introduce air to the cavity and the lungs are colapsed creating the apearance of a void.This is due to the lung being deflated and not filling the cavity any more.
A shot very high in the lung may not hit major blood vessels just like a shot in any other fringe area, and there is a posibility of healing and surviving and air is not sucked in to the chest cavity deflating the lungs.
Share your knowledge and ideas.

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