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Author Topic: Snap shooting vs anchor point  (Read 2463 times)

Offline vermonster13

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2006, 10:34:00 AM »
The underlieing theme is they are consistent. I bet if you watched each of them shoot in slow motion, you would see them reach a consistent anchor point even if it isn't held. If you were to ask they would also tell you that they felt in control of the shot the entire time.
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Offline longbowman

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2006, 11:14:00 AM »
Interesting thread.  I learned to shoot in the 60's on my own and to this day shoot nearly a "snap shot" mode.  However I hit my anchor "every" time but when the finger touches the arrow is gone because there's nothing for me to gain by waiting.  My son shoots with training from Larry Wise and uses back tension with a solid anchor.  We can both hit thrown disc consistantly and both average around 80% at 3D shoots but shoot totally different, especially in the "speed" department.

Offline Ron Vought

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2006, 11:40:00 AM »
JC - Good post and points of view on different shooting methods. I have to agree. Everyone needs to establish their own way of shooting.

The hold and shoot doesn't work so well for me. I believe my mind has too much time to think about other things using this approach. I like the "pull through" or "touch and go" method of shooting. I tried both ways of shooting and keep going back to the slow pull and "touch and go" release. I don't believe this is snap shooting like some people refer to it. I believe snap shooting to be a very quick draw with little or no anchor point, in other words no consistent anchor. I see alot of this at major shoots and most of the people I see using this method are not very good shooters. Not to say it doesn't work, but my view point is that they do not shoot well using a snap type of release.

Ron

Online Terry Green

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2006, 02:22:00 PM »
Howard Hill didn't hold long....and he won 176 tourneys in a row...or some rediculous number.....AND he killed a bunch of critters.  He pretty much snap shot, and he had a solid anchor.  If you shoot fast, it don't automaticaly mean you don't have a solid anchor.

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Offline doctorbrady

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2006, 09:48:00 AM »
As I suspected, my comment got a few of you worked up a little bit.  Let me start by reiterating the point that it is not my intention to disrespect anybody no matter what style or method they use.  I think the dialogue is beneficial.  First, let me say that I believe the addage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  However, I would bet that there are a whole bunch of folks who read these posts that can't shoot with nearly the consistency that they would like.  I have read hundreds of posts where folks have fretted about being able to hit 20 yard shots on game and others saying that game can't be taken ethically beyond 20-25 yards with a stickbow.  What I know for sure is that folks struggle with accuracy and consistency, myself included.
My reply to JC is that we ARE target shooting.  It just so happens that the targets are living critters.  I have seen Bob Munden shoot and he is incredible.  Keep in mind, though, that he is a trick shooter who practices a certain trick repetitively to get the result that he gets.  Athletes also practice their talents a lot, and there is a difference between slinging a baseball into the "reachable zone" of another player or flinging a hockey puck into a big goal than zipping an arrow into a 4-6 inch pocket.  
This is not to say that some folks who shoot quickly cannot shoot well.  Obviously, some do.  I have heard that Guru is a great shot, and I have no reason to think otherwise.  There are many examples of people who shoot well and shoot quickly.  My point, however, is this...ANY shooter with the proper weight equipment will shoot BETTER if they hold at anchor a second or two.  Given a chance to do its job, your brain and muscles will fine tune your shot for you if you don't fall apart during the delay.  I know that most of you have a solid anchor which helps immensely, but I believe that giving yourself a brief period to settle in serves to improve your shooting.  Back to baseball... though the outfielders sling the balls very quickly to try to get it close to a baseman, the pitcher goes through slow repitive motions in an attempt at getting the baseball in the exact spot he wishes it to go.  Even the fastest pistol shooters (and some are VERY fast)will shoot with GREATER accuracy if they allow themselves a little time to slow down.  For those of you who were ever compound shooters or even rilfe shooters, you know that you can release the string the second that the pin approaches the target or the crosshairs move across the target.  You can often hit the general area this way, but if you slow down and settle into the target your accuracy will improve dramatically.  If you are a gap or "point of aim" shooter, this correlates very closely to you.  Your point of aim is your sight.  If you are an instinctive shooter, I believe that slowing down makes even more sense.  Instinctive shooting is nothing more than relying on a mental "sight picture" and "muscle memory" to relay messages between your brain and muscles.  With GOOD information, it works wonderfully, with an amazing degree of accuracy.  Though are brains are created to run extremely fast, I firmly believe that the relayed information becomes more accurate when we give it some time to check and recheck itself.  It probably does so thousands of times over the course of a couple of seconds.  This is what I refer to as "fine tuning."  Again, it is not that folks can't hit the kill zone when they release upon hitting their anchor point, but I believe they will hit better with a brief hold.
Lastly, the gentleman who started this post stated that he was hitting better with a "floating anchor."  This is different than simply shooting quickly.  I cannot imagine how anyone can shoot better without any sort of consistent, reproduceable reference point than with one...or two.  I know of noone, including Bob Munden, who can pick up a gun and shoot it AS WELL whether shooting by aiming down the sights, shooting from the hip, or from various "floating" positions.  That he is shooting better this way than with an anchor tells me that there is a problem with his overall anchor, form, bow weight...or something.  My intention has not been to put him down, but to help him figure out what is going on.  If he is still shooting on the money with this style, then by all means he ought to stick with it.  My stong suspicion is that it won't last and he will become frustrated by inconsistency.  This is where putting up some video of his form might be very interesting.  Brady

Offline Vagrant

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2006, 10:18:00 AM »
Quote
To some of us, it's not rushing the shot....it's the perfect pace for the shooter who doesn't hold at anchor (that's implying he's reaching anchor). To some of us, the shot is the entire time...from the acquisition of the target until the arrow hits....aiming is happening the entire time...once the arrow reaches anchor, there is no need to tary...all the fiddling in the world won't make any difference if the shooter is on target already.  
I totally agree with that, that's how I shoot.  I'm aiming and letting my brain calibrate and calculate before I even start my draw, I continue to do so as I begin the draw and keep doing it through the draw, by the time I get to my anchor, I stop just long enough to make sure everything is in order and then let go.  Just looking at me, however, it doesn't even look like I aim, I literally just draw and shoot but that is what works for me.  Coming to anchor and staying there for a long time tends to give me a bad result due to the fact that I think too much.  I look at the target and think, am I high, am I low, am I this or that, I let my mind wander from the spot I've picked, I'll let myself try to gap shoot...basically I totally lose focus by staying at anchor for too long and then my shot goes to crap.  By aiming as I draw and then shooting I find I get the best and most consistent results.  Just my two cents.

Offline JC

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2006, 05:29:00 PM »
First, I didn't see any post where anyone was worked up.

 
Quote
Originally posted by doctorbrady:
My point, however, is this...ANY shooter with the proper weight equipment will shoot BETTER if they hold at anchor a second or two.  Given a chance to do its job, your brain and muscles will fine tune your shot for you if you don't fall apart during the delay.  I know that most of you have a solid anchor which helps immensely, but I believe that giving yourself a brief period to settle in serves to improve your shooting.
I tried to shoot that way, with results far less than what I can accomplish shooting the way I currently shoot. It's simply just not the best way to shoot for everyone. I don't think there is one best way...or everyone would be shooting it. My point is, don't discourage folks from shooting a particular way simply because you don't agree with it. There are far too many good shooters who hold, and good shooters who don't to make the assumption that either way is superior for everyone.

I do think there are some constants for greater accuracy: properly tuned equipment, consistent anchor (wherever that may be), drawing elbow in line with the arrow, solid bow shoulder, consistent grip, and a practiced aiming system (whether gap or instinctive or somewhere in between).
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Offline 30coupe

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2006, 09:25:00 PM »
I never know when the arrow is going to leave. Sometimes it takes off as soon as I touch anchor and sometimes it waits a few seconds. I think my brain just lets it go when the arrow is pointed at the target (usually). I find that I shoot best with a double anchor: middle finger at the corner of my mouth and nock or string (I can't see it so I can't tell which) just touching my cheek below my eye. I shoot 3 under and this puts the arrow directly under my eye. I stare at the target until I see an arrow appear on it. My string hand goes straight back (when I do it right) as I pull through.

I guess I shoot instinctively. I am looking right down the arrow at the target much like when I shoot a shotgun. I haven't quite figured out the gap shooting thing. I read about it and looked at pictures, but don't see how it works on deer.

Since we are all built differently, have different reflexes, hand-eye coordination, vision, etc., we just have to find what works and practice until it becomes natural I guess.

Interesting thread!
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Offline longbowguy

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2006, 10:50:00 PM »
What's up doc?

Well, there you go stirring up the pot and trying to apply reason where reason does not rule. Your error is in using absolutes, like EVERYBODY, and implying at least 'always', and in every situation. The phrase "stands to reason" is always weak, and in my experience often wrong.

Now a shooter who starts out a snap shooter and has a psychological disorder that prevents him from shooting any other way will not likely ever amount to much in the shooting sports. But one who has developed good form then developed the capability to do it increasingly quickly is another matter. The first is bad snap shooting and the second is good snap shooting.

My club has the standard field archery course out to 80 yards and I shoot it often with the traditional longbow. I shoot fairly slowly. Sometimes the block and tackle boys with thier compounds have to wait for me. But I also often take a quick shot, in the manner of Howard Hill and many other fine hunting style archers, at close hunting range. This is often the most accurate shot of the day.

Another example, the same tv show that shows trick shooter Bob Munson also shows Rob Leathem shooting his Government Model semi-auto pistols. He is incredibly fast but also incredibly accurate. I have shot in that kind of competition and can say that really good shots can be made quickly fairly often.

Now, to shoot 100 good arrows in a day, the deliberate highly repetitive method is best. I do that a lot, and that is my normal practice. But if you do not think a really accurate shot cannot be made quickly, now and then, especially when it really counts, your reasoning needs some wider experience to stand upon.

Offline sar

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2006, 11:53:00 PM »
Heh.
This argument reminds me of something the guy who's helped me with my shooting told me:
"Steve, there's lots of great snap shooters.  They can snap of a quick shot and hit whatever they want.
YOU'RE not one of them!"

To some extent, I wonder if snap shooting requires starting younger or having a lot of experience with shooting in general.  I picked up a bow at age 38, with no real shooting background(for any weapon).  The snap shooting didn't work well for me and my shooting didn't progress until I learned to hold in my anchor for a bit.  

I'm kinda bummed that I won't be snap shooting aspirin out of the air anytime soon though!

Offline doctorbrady

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2006, 01:12:00 PM »
I am sure that I am not going to get everyone to agree with me, nor is that my intention.  That is the great thing about this site.  We can have good discussion and disagreement. JC, I am glad that you gave it a try, but in order to make it work for you, you will have to spend some time at it, just like you did when you first learned to shoot the way you do currently.  Writing off my statements after a few shots doesn't give them a fair shake.  I am glad that we agree that there are some constants.  That's a bold step.  Unfortunately, it still doesn't explain the original poster's situation, as he doesn't have a consistent anchor, but rather a "floating" one.
Longbowguy, I believe that their are some absolutes.  My opinions regarding shooting may not be among them, but I bet I can improve most snap shooters given the chance.
It seems that everyone is concerned that I am trying to change their own shooting style or get everyone to shoot like me.  Certainly, I don't have such grand delusions to think that a simple post on this great website is going to do that!  In fact, I want folks to shoot BETTER than me. All I am trying to do is have the discussion regarding methods of shooting.  I believe I have a pretty good handle on WHAT makes instinctive shooting work, and I am trying to put together some routines that help others capitalize upon that.  My goal is to help some shooters who are not satisfied with their current performance shoot better.  I believe far too many traditional archers have settled for mediocre, or worse, shooting skills because they believe this is all that they can achieve.  I remember reading a post several months back where one of the members was commenting on how he only felt comfortable taking shots on game out to 15 yards and added that if most of us were real with ourselves we would agree with that.  Perhaps he is an exception, but my experience with other instinctive shooters tells me that he is not.  I commend him for knowing his limitations.  I just think it is too bad that his shooting has limited him so much.  If your current performance satisfies you then stick with it.  I don't want anyone to change to suit me.  I simply think that there are some great opportunities to help folks who want to improve upon their shooting abilities.
I have a lot of respect for the majority of guys on this site and I hope to get to slay some critters along side of some of you in the future.  Brady

Offline JC

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2006, 02:29:00 PM »
Doc, I didn't mean to be obtuse...when I said I tried it, the rest of the story is, that's the way I learned and started to shoot. I struggled, with the aid of both unqualified and qualified help, until I quit listening to what was getting shoved down my throat (and not working) and went off by myself. A few thousand arrows later, I found the thrill of hitting with, not just shooting, trad equipment. And that was through devoloping my own style...which evolved into what it is today.

Not sure what you mean by "bold step." I don't know you from Adam, Doc. You may be the finest archery coach out there. I'm not minimizing your skills or abilities at all. But neither do you know me or my abilities. There are some absolutes for me, the ones I've mentioned, but holding at anchor isn't one of them. It's inconsequential, to the right shooter. And my absolutes my not be the same as yours, or someone elses. If everyone were clones with exactly the same equipment, their might be more firm absolutes...but that doesn't mean somone can't do it just as well differently.

You can have a "consistent" anchor and it still "float", it's not very probable, but certainly not impossible. I know an older fellow with neck trouble who shoots with his hand way out in front of his face because of his limited range of movement. Kills a ton of game, and not to be counted out at a 3D shoot. It can be done, it's just real hard to do. Same can be said for most anything folks say is impossible.

I do totally agree with you about most archers settling for mediocre shooting skills. Anyone, and I do really believe anyone, can perforate your average aluminum beverage can with frightening repeatability at 20 yards...most much further than that. Most just simply don't take the steps necessary, for them, to do it.
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Offline doctorbrady

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2006, 04:36:00 PM »
JC,
If you are not obtuse, does that mean you are a cute  :) ?  As I said, it is not my intention to change everyone's mind.  I have helped quite a few folks shoot better over the years (folks owned a bow shop when I was younger), but I don't tout myself as an archery coach.  I simply have put together some knowledge of how the body works with what I have learned over the years about traditional archery, through my own experiences and the experiences of some great archers, and come up with some things that I believe will help others.  I have shot about every way imaginable with more anchor points than I care to admit.  All of them worked, some better than others.  What I meant by "bold move" was simply a statement that in this day and age few folks will admit that there are "absolutes" about anything.  I was not commenting at all on WHAT you believe are absolutes, though I believe these are essential to keeping traditional archery from being a very frustrating endeavor.  It is truly my desire to help folks shoot better by adding my imput when it is wanted...and sometimes when it is not.  The discussion has been good, but I am going to leave this one alone now to let others put their 2 pennies worth in.  Brady

Offline GroundHunter

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2006, 05:06:00 PM »
Here's what I think may be going on. When you use the "floating anchor" tyou are "drawing a line" with the elbow and the arrow, pulling through the shot for a good release. When you anchor, you are likely ceasing to pull, and your elbow is comming off the line, and your release is not in line. So, for those who like to hold and get a real set sight picture, you come to a consistent anchor point while drawing the line and still pulling through the release. Rod Jenkins describes the pulling through the release as a slight increase in back tension after finding anchor, after drawing a line: all in one draw sequence.

For me, I go for the feel of the floating anchor and pulling release ( with back tesion) and try to bring that middle finger alongside the same point on my face (corner of the mouth, a molar) that is on the line. The anchor is not a rigid thing, or a pressure thang, or a stopping point. It is a release point for a consistent draw.

I think lots of us stop at anchor and are no longer pulling, and are not drawing a line - a stretchy sort of thing.
GroundHunter
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Offline Talondale

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2006, 10:24:00 AM »
Maybe he should define "floating anchor" a little more specifically.  By that does he mean he's not touching his face?  I see no reason a person couldn't become consistent shooting a bow without a touch anchor.  If you train one way it is possible to become consistent even without a touch anchor.  It may be harder, and it may be beyond the capability of some people.  I don't know, did the native indians use a touch anchor?  I think conventional wisdom has been that you find an anchor on your face but I'm sure not all archers through time did this.  It's just a real good method but may not work best for everyone.  The problem with absolutes is that we are not automatons and that there is a level of psychy that plays into how we work.  Comfort and what "feels right" play a big part in how we shoot.  Look at the three under/split finger debate.  If we could make absolutes than one way would be best and the other sub-par, but that's not the case.  Look at batting styles: bat held high, bat on shoulder, bat held low over back.  Seems like only one way would be best, but that's not the case.  Longbow/recurve, gloves/tabs/caliper release, blonde/brunette.  Some things just "feel" better than others and therefore work better for each individual shooter.  I say: if you can be consistent, and you are confident and satisfied in your ability, than don't worry about it.  We're not graded on form, we just measure results.

Offline Patience

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2006, 10:28:00 AM »
Talondale,

Well said.

Offline Les in Israel

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2006, 04:30:00 PM »
I think JC and 2trax hit it on the head. I discovered this same dilema in myself. I was trying to hit the target perfectly by taking extra time aiming and the arrows were flying everywhere. I got so angry at my arrow that I put my next arrow and the string and just pulled back and shot at it. Hit right next to it. I didnt pause to touch anchor or anything. I have done this a few times and I started to realize that pauing is a problem. I am always careful to have a dynamic release, but appraently it is not dynamic enough when I pause.

But whenerver I work on my shooting, I pause and try to get better. I am in that phase again right now. THis thread has reminded me to just shoot. I think I may make a concentrated effort at snap shooting.

Offline Les in Israel

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2006, 04:32:00 PM »
BTW Terry, I REALLY appreciate those video clips of Howard shooting. Thanks.

Offline GroundHunter

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2006, 06:23:00 PM »
Les has it! Trying too hard is worse than just doiong it. Many of us must share the experience I often have , of my best shot, hitting a dime sized spot at 20-30 yards, on pulling up and shooting instinctively. It was not an accident. It "felt" right when i released, and by God that arrow went right to the spot.  Trying to put a group together is another thing.

My wife has good advice. "Why do you shoot 30 arrows the wrong way, Honey? Isn't that training you to shoot badly?".

Hurumph!, Well,... So, I work on form, and the "feel" of those good shots.
GroundHunter
Mom taught me: "Can't never could and won't never will"

HH Wesley Spl. 66" 85#@28
HH Black Bear. 66" 73#@28
Instinctive shooter, like wood arrows. Stalk & still hunt.
Dream: wingshooting ducks and quail

Online Terry Green

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Re: Snap shooting vs anchor point
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2006, 07:48:00 PM »
Sure thing Les.....how you been?....I was just thinking about you a couple of weeks ago...nice to see you around.
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' An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to execution' - Me

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