INFO: Trad Archery for Bowhunters



Author Topic: What we don't know  (Read 3083 times)

Offline Lee Viv

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 386
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2006, 09:46:00 PM »
Scott,

I think I like your approach!  I'm really getting frustrated at 3D shoots.  I can't seem to pick a spot on the 3D targets.  I'm gonna try more stump shooting, and some other methods.  Thanks for the slap back to reality!

Lee

Offline Aaron Proffitt

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2006, 10:27:00 PM »
Just an observation here , but to me TP is like alotta things when it comes to stick and string shootin'.....some people can't just allow something simple to remain so(ie. bare shaft tuning,FOC, etc. etc. )   :banghead:   .They aren't content to just let it be as simple as it really can be. Just gotta find a use for their engineering or sports psychology  degrees, I suppose.

IMO, TP= paralysis thru analysis.

All it is is one stick putting another stick into motion via energy providied by the shooter. Quit thinking about it and do it !!!
"First thing we do,let's kill all the lawyers".
Shakespeare Henry VI, Part 2

Does an agnostic,dyslexic,insomniac lie awake at night wondering if there really is a Dog ?

Offline Ernie Black

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 32
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2006, 09:40:00 PM »
TP is a mental thing, TP is not missing an animal occasionally, you don't have to read about it to have it. If you go to many shoots you will see the half draws, the uncontrolable shaking. I guess if they don't read about it they don't have TP? How about the people that quit because they can't lick it? It's sad that those who have never experienced TP can make light of it. Yes, not being so serious about your shooting may help but is no where near the cure. We all want to be the best we can don't we? If we choose not to be serious how good will we ever be?

Online Rob DiStefano

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 11718
    • Cavalier Pickups
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2006, 07:32:00 PM »
I know whence ye come from, brutha Curtis (and Charlie!).

TP is a 100% mental condition - the seemingly physical inability to properly aim and/or release yer arra when at full draw.  

I'm positive that TP has been around since the birth of the bow and arra.

IMO, TP is more common in formal target archery than bowhunting because the aiming process and full draw hold time is typically somewhat different.  But anyone who pulls string and levels a shaft at any mark, static or dynamic, can get TP.  

TP usually stems from a repetitive over thinking of the shot process.

The theoretical TP cure is to flush yer conscious mind of the shot process and let yer subconscious take over.  

There are more than a few simple practical processes that will overcome TP, and if yer head is screwed on reasonably well, and you can faithfully accept direction and follow through with it, TP can be banished in less than a hour.
IAM  ~  Black Powder Gang  ~  TANJ  ~  NRA Patriot Life ~ NRA RSO

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 10445
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2006, 10:44:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ted A. Young:
I'm getting PP.  People panic!  Yous guys are way to serious!     :knothead:      :bigsmyl:      :help:      "[dead]"  
I have to side with the COB, Ted for short, on this one.  I also think "IT" is all mental.  I also think I need to find a cure for my release soon.  While folks are working out their "IT" problems, I'll be working on my "THAT" problems.    :p

Offline Steertalker

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 380
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2006, 04:47:00 PM »
Target panic IS the inability to control ones shot and it IS 100% mental.

Most archers I've seen don't have control of their shots and thus, in my opinion, suffer from some degree of TP.  It is most apparent to me with the instinctive/snap shooters.

Preach on, Yohon!!
"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold:  its patriotism, its morality and its spiritual like.  If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Joseph Stalin

Offline JC

  • Moderator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 4466
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2006, 05:49:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steertalker:
Most archers I've seen don't have control of their shots and thus, in my opinion, suffer from some degree of TP.  It is most apparent to me with the instinctive/snap shooters.
Hmmmm.....I think there is simply a fundemental difference in how certain people aim/draw/shoot vs. others. I have had numerous people tell me I couldn't shoot accurately as fast as I shoot...and that I'm not in control because I shoot that fast. I sure am glad the critters don't know that.  ;)  

Some simply process the information differently and are able to "speed" things up. I know quite a few who are accused of "snap shooting" that also happen to be quite deadly, either at foam or fur. The same can be said of those with a more "deliberate" hold. To me, the deciding factor is, are you hitting what you are aiming at? If so, then what you are doing, whatever that may be, is working. I don't think you have to "hold" or draw slowly or shoot the bale etc. to be in control of your shot.
"Being there was good enough..." Charlie Lamb reflecting on a hunt
TGMM Brotherhood of the Bow

Offline Guru

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 11491
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2006, 05:57:00 PM »
Preach on brutha Joe!!!!
Curt } >>--->   

"I love you Daddy".......My son Cade while stump shooting  3/19/06

Online Rob DiStefano

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 11718
    • Cavalier Pickups
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2006, 06:26:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steertalker:
....

Most archers I've seen don't have control of their shots and thus, in my opinion, suffer from some degree of TP.  It is most apparent to me with the instinctive/snap shooters.

....
Sure sounds like you haven't seen any/many really good "instinctive" archers/bowhunters.

Most of the "snap shooter instinctive" archers I know aim very very deliberately, very focused - and like any really good archer, the instant they reach anchor the shot is gone.  This is not at all unlike a target shooter push/pulling through a clicker.  And, FWIW, these dayze the FITA fingers freestylers are releasing arras very quickly as compared to back in the 70's ... you'd almost think they didn't have on bow sights.

I've seen JC shoot, and more than a few archers can take notes or lessons from watching his deadly accurate machine-line shooting at distances beyond what most trad bowhunters call "long".

YMMV.
IAM  ~  Black Powder Gang  ~  TANJ  ~  NRA Patriot Life ~ NRA RSO

Offline woodsman

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2006, 06:51:00 PM »
I hope anyone who really has tp will not take some of the advise given here seriously.  Cure tp in an hour??  Good grief.   If ANYONE knew how to do that do you think tp would even exist??

I suspect tp continues to exist because some folks make light of other people's problems, comment on something they know absolutely nothing about.  That's too bad cause it helps no one and hurts many others.

Chris

Online Rob DiStefano

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 11718
    • Cavalier Pickups
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2006, 07:43:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by woodsman:
I hope anyone who really has tp will not take some of the advise given here seriously.  Cure tp in an hour??  Good grief.   If ANYONE knew how to do that do you think tp would even exist??

I suspect tp continues to exist because some folks make light of other people's problems, comment on something they know absolutely nothing about.  That's too bad cause it helps no one and hurts many others.

Chris
As much as you think I don't, Chris, I do know very well what I'm talking about when it comes to "target panic".  

Yes, TP does indeed exist and yes, it can be controlled and/or eliminated in less than an hour - in fact, within 5 minutes.  Been there, done that.  I've helped more than a few archers regain control and focus, and this goes as far back as the 60's, when I had my own demon TP.  

It's not a big deal to work through TP, anyone can do it, and there are more than a few well proven methods.      

As always, YMMV.
IAM  ~  Black Powder Gang  ~  TANJ  ~  NRA Patriot Life ~ NRA RSO

Offline Ernie Black

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 32
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2006, 08:35:00 PM »
Rob, Sent you a PM

Offline Guru

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 11491
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2006, 09:53:00 PM »
Why is it because a guy shoots quick,he automatically is thought to not have "control of his shot". Some yes,some no   ;)
Curt } >>--->   

"I love you Daddy".......My son Cade while stump shooting  3/19/06

Offline Steertalker

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 380
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2006, 10:21:00 PM »
Congratulations to you great instinctive/snap shooters.  You must have some God given talent that most archers do not have, including myself.  Consider yourselves lucky, blessed or whatever.

For the person who lacks that natural ability, like me, shooting arrow after arrow will solve nothing, including target panic.  And Mr DiStefano, if you can cure TP in 5 minutes, you surely must sit on the right hand of the Father.

But with proper training and coaching, we not so blessed by the archery gods, can overcome TP and become quite decent archers.  I'll still pick the man of average ability, who has been properly coached, over the best instinctive/snap shooter.  

I've got a question for you great snap shooters.  If you were to draw down on a wound up Texas WT at 15 yds and at the instant you hit anchor, if you really get there, the deer changes position, do you have the control to hold at anchor till the deer presents another shot, rather than letting down and having the deer see you and thus ruining your chance of ever seeing it again?
"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold:  its patriotism, its morality and its spiritual like.  If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Joseph Stalin

Online Terry Green

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 22149
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2006, 10:34:00 PM »
Steertalker,

I don't know what the heck you are refering to.....I've drawn down on hogs as many as 8 times before I finaly dropped the string....and deer as many as 5 times, and I'm a pretty quick shooter.  We all are different, no sense in dissing others, or the way they shoot just because they don't shoot like you.  A quick shooter can have just as much 'control' as someone who holds, no where is that written in stone. And the longer you hold, the more likely the animal will move.

"If you were to draw down on a wound up Texas WT at 15 yds and at the instant you hit anchor, if you really get there, the deer changes position, do you have the control to hold at anchor till the deer presents another shot"........yep, been there, done that, got the dang T-Shirt.

Letting go has nothing to do with how fast you got on target or anchor.  If someone is on target when they reach anchor then there is no negative in dilly dallying around....nor is there a lack of 'control'.  Any good snap shooter can hold off a shot if the animal moves....don't know where that is written in stone either.

If you don't shoot that way, or can't shoot that way, why are you dissing those that do....some that have been very successfull at it I might add.  Again, shooting quick and being out control are not one and the same.  Most of the good hunters I know are snap shooter, and other's I know hold a bit.

Howard Hill was a snap shooter, and I'll take him over any anyone on game.  I'll aldo take anyone that can 'manufacture' a shot at the moment of truth.
tarz@tradgang.com


"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

' An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to execution' - Me

Online Terry Green

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 22149
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2006, 10:55:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steertalker:

Most archers I've seen don't have control of their shots and thus, in my opinion, suffer from some degree of TP.  It is most apparent to me with the instinctive/snap shooters.

Well, I've found that to be the opposite with the shooter's I've been around.  Those that hold seem to  have more time to 'think' about it, and don't know how to subconsciously let go of the string and end up plucking to heck and back. No need in disrespecting anyone over how they get the job done, as long as they do.

I am not painting with a broad brush either, nor claiming that those that hold are not in control. Just that the guys I've seen struggling were proccessing too much information at anchor and lost it on the let go.  Jason Westbrock holds a bit, and he's deadly on game, and he's also shot animals instinctive.....so it works both ways from both directions.

Different people have different make ups, have different mental processes, and shoot at different speeds.  What works for some may not work for others, but it sure don't make one way wrong. Or cause you to have a chip on your shoulder.
tarz@tradgang.com


"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

' An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to execution' - Me

Offline woodsman

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2006, 11:02:00 PM »
Rob... Let's hear the cure.  There's a whole bunch of us that will all kick a couple bucks to make it worth your while.

I don't want this to be taken wrong.. I don't know most of you personally, as you don't know me and I don't mean to sound dis-respectful but  I've doing this since the early 60's also and I know that if you've REALLY got tp what Rob suggests is impossible.

If your shooting is in a slump, if you've developed a bad habit..Yes, it can be corrected.  In it's earliest stages, with the correct help, tp can be corrected.  But once it's got you firmly in it's grip, not gonna happen.

If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it.  I've had tp for over 20 years..I've got an extra hour tommorrow.. cure me!  PLEASE!

I know what you're thinking.. 20 years!!  The reason I had it for 20 years was believing the same advise you're hearing now.
Now, I only say these things in the hope of preventing others from going down the same road.  I've tried every trick, gadget and magic potion, they don't work.  I do believe that I'm now winning my battle..no instant cures...lots of hard work.  For you that really suffer from this, you understand what I'm saying and you know.  

Good Luck

Chris

Online Terry Green

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 22149
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2006, 11:05:00 PM »
And some of you with this TP ailment might seriously consider taking Rob up on his offer.  He's been around the block more than once let me tell ya.
tarz@tradgang.com


"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

' An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to execution' - Me

Offline Steertalker

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 380
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2006, 11:18:00 PM »
Terry,

I don't know how I was dissing anyone.

You made my point....that we are all different.

But most guys will never ever be able to shoot well, using your style or JC's or whoever.  You guys are the lucky ones that have the natural ability.  Good for you and your success.

There is however a proven form and technique that WILL work for just about anyone if they are willing to put the time and effort into it.  It's just an alternative for those who have to work hard at everything we do and want it bad enough.

Yes, there are some really exceptional instinctive/snap shooter...like yourself, I suppose.  You are truly blessed.  But some guy just picking up the bow for the first time will more than likely take years to achieve YOUR level of expertise by just shooting gobs of arrows learning from trial and eror.  However, take that same guy and give him proper training, he'll be shooting at you level within a year and then he may develop your style over time if he so desires.

Anyway, back to the original subject...TP is real and you don't get it simply by talking about it.
"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold:  its patriotism, its morality and its spiritual like.  If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Joseph Stalin

Online Rob DiStefano

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 11718
    • Cavalier Pickups
Re: What we don't know
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2006, 06:39:00 AM »
Steertlaker and woodsman - you skeptical boys sure do aim for the jugular.  Now if we could only bottle up that kinda mental fortitude and sell it, there'd be much less to worry about TP.    ;)    But I think I know where yer coming from, since yer attitudes kinda drip of TP frustrations, and hopefully y'all will see the light.  

There are more than a few valid ways to tear down TP, and one method may be more adpative to you than others.    

You must want to beat TP, you must acknowledge that it CAN and WILL be banished, you must begin the TP cure with a very positive mental attitude that you ARE gonna beat "it".

Jim Ploen, one of the best tourney archers of the 60's, wrote a very good article about TP that was published in the Fall 2000 issue of IAM.  There are lotsa other good articles on the subject and most good archery coaches are well versed in helping their students lick TP.
 
TP is a mental condition - the inability to:  properly aim, and/or come to anchor, and/or let go of the string whence at anchor - this "freezing" condition is always triggered by sight.  

You must first lose yer sight, and so free yer mind.  

It's best if you had a "coach" standing next to ya when attempting to kick TP, but you can surely do it on your own.  I've been in archery and bowhunting since 1955, I've had TP too many times, I beat it every time and it never took more than an hour to get back to at least decent shooting.

Banishing TP does NOT mean yer automatically gonna be a good shootin accurate archer/bowhunter - it simply means that yer back in COMPLETE control of yer shot process.  The accuracy part is still something to strive for.    :)  

The ways and processes of ending TP are about YOU taking control of the aiming and releasing of the arrow. The aim part is conscious, the release part is triggered by the conscious, but the actual release is carried out by your subconscious. In most cases of TP, just the act of aiming will falsely trigger the release, sometimes at half draw. How many of you been there and done that?  Really?  Well, we're gonna fix that pronto.

Here's one simple, basic TP conquering process ...

Part 1. Take yerself, a bow (it must be a bow that you can *comfortably* draw and hold for at least 3 full seconds at full draw/anchor) and one of yer arrows over to a target butt. Stand no more than 2 or 3 arrow lengths away from the butt (there is NO target face or aiming point on the butt). Face the butt. With the arrow nocked on the bow string, hold yer bow arm out and aim the arrow at the butt but don't draw. Close your eyes. Begin to draw slowly. When you get to FULL DRAW - to your anchor point (important!) - hold and count for three full seconds ("one thousand one, one thousand two ...). At the count of three, LET DOWN THE ARROW.

Repeat until the entire process feels very comfortable, smooth, and YOU are in control. NEVER RELEASE AN ARROW.

Part 2. Repeat Part 1, only now keep both eyes open BUT DO NOT AIM and DO NOT LOOK AT THE ARROW. I find it best to look at the bow hand or arrow rest.

Repeat until the entire process feels very comfortable, smooth, and YOU are in control. NEVER RELEASE AN ARROW.

Part 3. Repeat Part 2, but now AIM INTENTLY at the middle of the target butt - don't stick up an aiming spot or target face, yer aiming at a blank butt/target/whatever.

Repeat until the entire process feels very comfortable, smooth, and YOU are in control. NEVER RELEASE AN ARROW.

Part 4. Repeat Part 3, but now RELEASE THE ARROW *AFTER* THE LAST HOLDING SECOND COUNT (the third second).

This isn't a test or a contest and you can stay with any of the above Parts for as long as it takes for you to BE IN CONTROL. You can also jump Parts IF YOU ARE IN CONTROL.  If yer not in complete control, you can't move on to the next Part.  

If you aren't achieving positive results with the above process on yer own, you MUST seek qualified one-on-one guidance.

In a one-on-one coaching scenario, it truly takes no more than minutes for the TP afflicted archer to hold anchor without either premature release or inability to release.  With some TP afflicted folks, their strong incorrect mental attitude needs to go to "boot camp", and that requires a "drill sarge" coach to get the desired results.

TP can lurk.  You may beat it only to have it come back full time or part time a day, a week, a year, a decade later.  In any case, immediately go back to your basics, to whatever process cured it for ya.

For you current poor TP demonized souls: I hope some of this post helps ya get back to good shootin and good huntin real quick - there is NO EXCUSE for allowing TP to ruin yer archery and bowhunting.
IAM  ~  Black Powder Gang  ~  TANJ  ~  NRA Patriot Life ~ NRA RSO

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2019 ~ Trad Gang.com ©