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Author Topic: Shooting at 40 yards  (Read 1460 times)

Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2006, 11:04:00 AM »
Oh, and wrt JC's first post above (we were posting simultaneously)  it is precisely the "definitive line somehwere"  that I disagree with - we draw our own lines, based on a myriad of factors that only we are qualified to determine for ourselves.  And we constantly adjust that line for ourselves (or we should anyway) - I don't feel that I'm qualified to draw a line for someone else based on only one of those factors.  I think your note about "situational ethics" demonstrates this very well.

(and I know the Hitler comment wasn't intended to offend - but I don't think its reasonable to compare the 2)
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Offline JC

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2006, 11:48:00 AM »
Jason, yes, I'll say 100 yards with a bow is unethical. Not necessarily because of the shooter....I've seen the olympics first hand and watched some amazing target shooters do thier stuff at those distances. But those are targets, not animals. There are far too many things to go wrong in the looooong period of time it takes an arrow, even a 300+fps arrow, to travel that distance. Far too many things out of the shooter's control. For lack of a better word in my limited vocabulary, it's wreckless. I have no problem with saying it's unethical. Would I spit on the guys you talked about....the ones who have made 20 of those shots to perfection, never wounded lost animals? No, that's not my style...but I would have no problem looking them in the eye and saying I thought what they did was wrong if they ask me....and if they are crappy shots taking those shots, I'll flat out tell em even if they don't ask me. And again, I would do my best to distance myself from them...that's why I don't have a lot of compound shooting friends anymore: too many guys taking 60 yard shots, who aren't remotely qualified to do it, with flyweight arrows and expanding heads and those choices, to me, aren't bad judgement...they are wreckless.

I'm a better shot with a rifle and a compound both, no shame here...they are more accurate tools given the mechanical/technilogical advantages. Is hunting with a longbow unethical for you? I don't know...can you, with say an 85% success, hit your target in the kill zone from zero to your chosen maximum yardage? Do you diligently practice for such shots? Are you using a well designed broadhead that is appropriately sharpened? Do you always take only shots within that range? Do you pass on shots even within the range when the other conditions aren't right? If you said yes to all then my opinion, for what it's worth, is the longbow is an ethical choice for you. But then, you could just as easily be "unethical" with a rifle if you say....chose to shoot at a running deer at 300 yards with full metal jacket ammo out of a .223. In my opinion, that's unethical...it's plain wrong. It's not bad judgement, like if you feel confident out to 200 with your .308 and a deer of a lifetime steps out into the field feeding calmly at 275 and you shoot and make a bad hit.

I mentioned my point about consideration of scale...and thought I explained but maybe not well enough. It's not unethical, to me, to shoot at the smaller game at longer distances because the odds of a debilitating hit are greater than with a deer. Compared to deer, small game have more kill zones that can effectively be penetrated by an arrow. And again, comparing  their body size, the arrow is a much larger projectile, carry much more energy (relatively) than when compared to a deer sized target. If you miss by 4 inches on a deer, you might have made a bad hit. Miss by 4 inches on a rabbit and you missed clean. Also, in many areas gophers, dillers, and in even some...rabbits are all vermin. That extends my ethical range some too.

J-not feeling any feathers ruffled-C
"Being there was good enough..." Charlie Lamb reflecting on a hunt
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Offline JC

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2006, 11:51:00 AM »
My point was extreme, but here's another. You see someone kicking a dog....do you let them continue? You hear someone admitted they kicked their dog, do you say something to them about it? Or you see a friend riding his 5 year old on the back of his motorcycle without a helmet...it's legal....but is it ethical? Do you say anything?
"Being there was good enough..." Charlie Lamb reflecting on a hunt
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Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2006, 01:51:00 PM »
Interesting point - but its still not that clear cut - if I saw my neighbor beating his dog because he's trying to teach it not to run out in the street and get run over by a car, or trying to teach it not to bite his kids, then I wouldn't consider it 'unethical' - it may not be the best method for training the dog - and I'd certainly point that out and offer to help him train the dog properly, but I wouldn't question his ethics....

Now if he's beating the dog because he enjoys inflicting pain on a living creature, then we'd probably have a bit more "heated" discussion...


Your justification for long shots on smallers animals is what I'd hoped you'd say:  more likely to either kill or miss cleanly (basically) and I agree with that -
if however, you'd said that it just doesn't bother you to wound a rabbit as much as it does to wound a deer, then I'd have to question that logic - (and I use rabbit specifically, since both are game animals so the ethical issues should be the same) - I think many people DO justify marginal shots on rabbits (for example) simply because they don't lose any sleep over losing a bunny
(and deer are considered 'vermin' by a lot of people with trashed landscape too, so that distinction isn't all that clear cut either)
The beaten path is for beaten men.

Offline JEFFRO

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2006, 02:04:00 PM »
NOW BACK TO LONG ARROW FLIGHT.   :bigsmyl:

Offline Chad Edgar

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2006, 02:09:00 PM »
I applaud you 3, really.  Now can I play too???
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Here from the wild dream come true...
Treasures of flesh never few! "Jambi"

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2006, 02:17:00 PM »
JasonV, I fully agree with your posts so far.    :bigsmyl:

Offline JC

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2006, 03:41:00 PM »
Hmmm, Tracy, you agree with his posts so far but you don't think it's okay to take chunk shots at feral hogs or deer....yet Clint thinks that the 100 yard shots on pronghorns aren't "unethical" to him....not sure what you are saying.

Chad, yes would love to have another view in here.

Jason, I don't like to wound any animal, I like a clean kill, even on rats...on that I think we both agree. There is a difference in your answer and mine though....I don't think beating a dog is right...ever. That's wrong in my book, it's torture, ie unethical. If the dog needs to be killed, kill it, but don't torture it. Letting your dog run wild in the streets is unethical behavior, the dog doesn't deserve the owners stupidity or lack of concern for his well being. Therein  lies my point about "wreckless" or unethical shots. They may be my ethics, but when I witness them being broken, I am morally bound to take action. Sometimes that action is simply to leave....when the situation does not warrant further action...sometimes it's a good ol fashioned brawl. And it wouldn't be the first time I've had my nose nocked in the dirt cause I butted in. I was taught that when you see something wrong, you don't stand there and watch it happen. By doing so, you are in essence condoning it. So leave, or step up, your choice. I've left a camp or two in my day cause someone there was clearly crossing my line of right/wrong and I was not in a position to take it up more directly...other than to tell them "I'm leaving cause I want no part of what you are doing." To me, sometimes that's enough.

Am I better than the fellow with the ethics I am questioning...nope....but I have a very clearly defined sense of right and wrong. And I ain't gonna stand there and let wrong happen in front of me. Specially when it comes to something I am very passionate about and deeply connected with such as traditional bowhunting.

Now....as Jeffro alluded to, back to long arrow flight. Maybe we should start an ethics thread on pow-wow....bet there'd be a lot of responses over there.
"Being there was good enough..." Charlie Lamb reflecting on a hunt
TGMM Brotherhood of the Bow

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2006, 04:17:00 PM »
JC, the emphasis should be put on "say or imply" not chunk.       :readit:    "Hmmm"

Online Roger Norris

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2006, 07:02:00 PM »
I have been gone a couple days...nice to see other folks join in the discussion. I like JC's scale of justification...I am pretty sure I can ethically put an arrow through a buffaloes ribs at 40 yards...I wouldn't try it on a whitetetail. I think the small game vs big game scenario is well explained also...an arrow most anywhere on a rabbit has the reasonable expectation of being a kill shot.

This is a complex question, more so than what is on the surface. Intention, training, equipment, all play a role in the ethical decision.

Is it safe to say that we can QUESTION the ethics of someone taking a 100 yard bow shot on big game? I capitilized question because I don't know how to do italics ;0).....I think questioning ones ethics is different than condemning ones ethics....
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Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2006, 07:09:00 PM »
COMMON GROUND!!!!!!

Absolutely agree without reservation!

Question the ethics of the shot, be open to the explanation, and then draw your conclusions.  But be careful not to confuse poor judgement with bad ethics....
The beaten path is for beaten men.

Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2006, 07:35:00 PM »
Oh, and for the record, not really sure how Clint would feel about the 100yd shots, though I would guess we have similar opinions  :D    
(common mistake)

Of course, sometimes he uses that Cop-logic and leaves me completely cornfuzed  :confused:
The beaten path is for beaten men.

Offline JC

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2006, 09:01:00 PM »
Excellent post Roger, wish I had said it so succinctly...
"Being there was good enough..." Charlie Lamb reflecting on a hunt
TGMM Brotherhood of the Bow

Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2006, 09:48:00 PM »
I agree Roger, well said.

Online Roger Norris

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2006, 09:27:00 AM »
Speaking of 40 yards...I just went out back and paced off about 40 yards in a field, and then in a thick section of swamp....what a difference.

It makes me think that our distance limitations may be regionally affected, as well. I can't imagine taking a 40 yard shot in a Michigan swamp. I suppose if I lived on the prairies all my life, 40 yards wouldn't look quite as far.
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Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2006, 10:27:00 AM »
I grew up hunting the swamps of Michigan Roger - I know exactly what you mean - there were some spots that 40 yds with a rifle would've been tough - but I sure do miss it......
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Online Roger Norris

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2006, 10:38:00 AM »
I made my farthest gun kill on a deer last fall. She was in an open field. I was using a scoped 870 12 gauge. It looked like a loooong way...I paced it off at 35 yards ;0)

Almost every bow kill I have ever made was 10 yards or less. I hunt a couple spots when you cannot see past 10 yards...last fall I had a good buck within 15 yards that I had no chance at. Just too thick. I like it though, I'm never forced to make an ethics decision!   :bigsmyl:
"I think wolves would find me stringy, of high cholesterol, with an Irish whiskey aftertaste"
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Offline **DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2006, 11:36:00 AM »
Yeah, we've got a lot of open stuff over here.  It's frustrating to be able to watch a deer at 400 yards, knowing you're not even in his stomping grounds cuz, he's just fringin.  My longest gun kill was 120ish yards.  I doubt I'll ever take another shot on an animal with my bow as my longest longbow kill.  A T-storm moved in and washed out anykind of a trail I had to follow before I could find her.  I found her too late and she'd only travelled about 35 yards through waist high crp grass.  But, rain does terrible things to tracking and CRP can be thick.  Now, if it looks like a storm is moving in, I don't hunt.  But, just like shooting over 40 yards, 30 yards or 80 yards, I'm not going to say its unethical or improper for another to hunt in the rain.  I just know that I had bad results with it and won't do it again.  I know a lot of folks are being successful in those conditions.  That's their call.

Did I say that so as to make sense this time?    :knothead:

Online Roger Norris

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2006, 12:38:00 PM »
LostHawg...you mention difficulty trailing a deer in the thick stuff 35 yards...Yep. Thats one of the things I DON'T like about these swamps, after the shot, once the deer bolts, usually you can't follow thier line of travel very well. I have had short, 60 yard bloodtrails that take an hour...
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Offline JC

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2006, 02:45:00 PM »
Perfect sense Tracy   :D
"Being there was good enough..." Charlie Lamb reflecting on a hunt
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