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Author Topic: Shooting at 40 yards  (Read 2651 times)

Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2006, 10:42:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Roger Norris:

At the risk of sounding judgemental, I would call that unethical.
No offense intended, but I don't understand that comment.....

What is unethical about taking a shot that you can accurately and reliably make?
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Offline Roger Norris

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2006, 08:17:00 AM »
Jason - I would call it unethical because a 100 yard bow shot, on live game, cannot be "reliably" made. At 100 yards, so many things can happen with the wind, the animal taking 1/2 a step, etc....animals aren't targets.
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Offline Bowhunter4life

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2006, 08:29:00 AM »
40 yards is "doable" with trad gear.  Myself and the way I set up my bows my point on is right at 40 yards, makes it nice to "hang" with my compound shooting friends, but I wouldn't shoot at a critter at that distance.

As far as 100 yard shots at NM Mule deer, not necessary if you actually do some hunting and get close.

23 yard shot with a 50 yard recovery, steep quartering away shot in his right side behind the ribs and out just behind his left shoulder...

 
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Offline Roger Norris

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2006, 06:38:00 PM »
Nice job! Nothing like a clean kill. Yep, I believe that the folks who claim they "need" to take long shots at game are just making an excuse for lack of stalking skills.
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Offline JEFF B

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2006, 07:11:00 PM »
hi  guys  over here  we shoot from 5 to 50 yards
and every now and then do a round of ifaa to bring your self back on form. it sorts the men from the boys. but hey it is good fun. and when i go hunting i dont shoot anyting over  25 yards.like a mate of mine who shoots a compound shoots  game at 60 to 70 yards. then turns to me and says why do you stalk the deer to within 25 yards. and i just say you just said it stalk. it is all about skill and fun.  :thumbsup:    :thumbsup:
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Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2006, 01:25:00 AM »
I understand the concept:  longer distance: greater time from release to impact: more time for the animal to move....  but deer jump the string, the wind blows, unseen underbrush deflects the arrow.  Any number of factors can cause even a "slam dunk" shot to go south.  I guess I'm just overly sensitive to the word "unethical" - if I could make a 100 yard shot reliably, I'd do it in the right situation... I can't, and don't... but I wouldn't fault anyone else for it.  I agree, "getting close" is part of the challenge - and the reward - but I don't see distance in and of itself dictating ethics.

Sorry, I really am not trying to be a putz - and hope not to offend - just clarifying....
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Offline Roger Norris

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2006, 08:35:00 AM »
Jason - I have a hard time declaring "ethics violation" on another mans actions. Ethics are personal. The adage of ethics being defined by your actions when nobody is around makes sense to me.

However, a few things are pretty plain to me. And taking a shot that has more risk that probability of success is plainly unethical. No, the measurement of 100 yards is not unethical. It's all of the things that can happen to an arrow in that 100 yards that make shooting at big game at that distance unethical.

Which brings me to the other 1/2 of personal ethics, not limited to the game fields...if I see another person, behaving in a manner that should be corrected, I have no problem giving them my opinion on the matter. Why? Well in this case, the probability of 100 yard shots producing wounded deer is pretty high. And wounded deer running around with arrows sticking out of their rumps makes you and I, as bowhunters, look bad. Therefore we have a right..and I believe a responsibility...to ask others to consider the ethics of such a shot.

There have been many threads deriding the "Ethics Police". For the most part, I agree. We should mind our own business. But not always.
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Offline dgf41

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2006, 01:42:00 PM »
Love shooting the longer distances. I have shot 3-D shoots from compound stakes and done well most trad stakes are a little close for practicle shooting. Hard to get ten to twelve yards from a groundhog or turkey. There are few better sights then hitting the kill zone on a target 30 plus yards consitently
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Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2006, 11:52:00 AM »
My dad shared a camp with 4 compound hunters his last trip for mulies.  They were hunting pronghorn (the reservation had been alotted 6 permits for the year, so they booked 6 to bowhunters and 6 to gun hunters - since they knew the shots were 75+yds at best and they "knew" the bowhunters would strike out  :rolleyes:  ) - these guys routinely practiced for those shots, they ranged all of their shots and had sight pins set up for those distances, and were extremely accurate - they worked hard to be sure that they stayed accurate....  they went 4 for 4 - all clean shots and quick recovery..

I know that's just anecdotal - but I just can't see calling those guys - who worked very hard to become/stay as proficient as they were, and who obviously chose their shots carefully -  "unethical".  
We can debate their equipment choice, but I can't see questioning their "ethics" just because of the distance - they were probably more effective at those ranges than many guys are at 20+ yards.....

Don't mean to stir the pot too much - I'm probably just overly-sensitive about questioning another hunter's "ethics"....  

But I also agree wholeheartedly: if you think its wrong its your duty to speak up and say so...
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Offline Roger Norris

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2006, 01:13:00 PM »
Why couldn't they get closer than 75 yards?
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Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2006, 09:30:00 AM »
Haven't hunted them, but from what I read and hear, you're just not going to get that close to a pronghorn - unless you want to sit next to a well/water trough, etc - but that kind of hunting isn't for everyone either.

But that's not really the point...

My point is that we all choose our own challenges - we choose to challenge ourselves with our equipment by limiting the technology and getting as close as we can - those guys chose to challenge themselves by maxing the capabilities of their equipment and the effective range.  They could have much more easily used a rifle - but so could we.

I can easily see someone telling me using a longbow is unethical, for similar reasoning - so I guess I feel like I need to defend them for their choice, and hope that they'd defend me for mine.....
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Offline Roger Norris

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2006, 10:01:00 AM »
I have to respectfully disagree, Jason. To me, your first paragraph perfectly describes the point. I find it unethical if someone chooses to use a bow, when they themselves define that a bow may not be the correct weapon for the task. Stretching a bow to the limits you describe is akin to stretching a rifle....by comparison, we are saying a 750 to 1000 yard rifle shot is ok, if I have my ratios right.

If they are unable or unwilling to get closer, they should not use a bow. A friend and I are kicking around the idea of a pronghorn hunt in 07. Yep, we will be sitting around water, trying for a 20 yard shot. Stalking would be an option, but from what I hear...near impossible with any bow. So we will adhere to the limitations of our chosen equipment...or use a rifle.

I'm sorry Jason, but nobody will ever convince me that it is ethical to shoot an arrow at game beyond 40 yards. Even if a persons skill is up to the task, too many things can happen, as we discussed earlier.

Oddly enough, and this may be hypocritical of me, I really don't have a problem with a guy launching arrows long distance at things like prarie dogs or woodchucks.
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Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2006, 04:20:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Roger Norris:
 I find it unethical if someone chooses to use a bow, when they themselves define that a bow may not be the correct weapon for the task.  
Absolutely - and I think this is the crux of the arguement for or against.  But the key is whether the  individual  feels it is the right or wrong weapon.  
I'd agree completely if the 100yd shooter felt that he wasn't up to the task - but if he believes that he is capable of reliably and cleanly taking an animal, then its not unethical - even if he's wrong...
its the motivation behind an action that dictates the ethics, not the action itself.
In the case of the 4 pronghorn hunters, they happened to be right - they were capable - but its the fact that they belived it was an acceptable weapon at that distance that makes me want to defend their decision


Ignore the extreme distance (and I do agree, I can't ever see myself bow hunting at that distance):
Lets say I thought I was effective out to 40 yards - I practiced, I was consistent - deer season rolls around and I shoot a deer at 30 yards - too far back, lose the blood trail, and never recover the deer, even after searching for 3 days....
Scenario #2 - I know I really shouldn't shoot past 20 yards, but I have deer standing at what I know is 30 yards - I decide to take a chance anyway, and end up with a gut shot....

Same distance, same result, but I'd say #2 was not an ethical decision, while #1 was.....

Not trying to change your mind, and I don't mean to beat the point to death, but I do think its an important distinction.
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Offline Roger Norris

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2006, 05:03:00 PM »
Jason - I can't disagree with anything you typed in your last post, especially the distinction "then it's not unethical, even if he's wrong"....thats a great point.

I will say this, however...and I'm not talking about your Dad's friends, nobody in particular...there IS a difference between a shot at 30 yards vs 100 yards. The 30 yard shot can be trained for, with a reasonable expectation of success. The 100 yard shot has factors to contend with beyond the shooters control (wind, animal movement,mirage, etc). I contend that it is beyond the ethical use of a bow, therefore, good training and good intentions are superceded by the misapplication of the equipment...and theres the thing. Why misapply the equipment? The tag is cheaper? Ego? Bragging rights? To me, THAT's where the ethics factor comes in, in this scenario.

By the way, your last post was excellent, and I had to think pretty hard to maintain my side of the argument. I don't mind you trying to change my mind, and your not beating anything to death. If someone is going to cry "ethics", they should be able to think it through against all angles. I appreciate the converstaion.
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Offline JC

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2006, 09:07:00 AM »
So far, I must say, excellent points by both you gentlemen. Nice to see, once again, why this site continues to grow....respect never dampens healthy, intelligent debate.

I have to also say that I am firmly of the conviction that a shot at a big game animal with anything shooting a projectile slower than the speed of sound, past the 50-60 yard mark is unethical...no matter who the shooter is. Can it be done, sometimes at will by certain people? Yes, but that doesn't make it right. To me, there is simply too much that can happen, to many unknowns, in the time the arrow is launched (purely because of the distance) that cannot be trained for, accounted for, or compensated for....the odds are against a clean kll before the archer even releases the arrow.

I don't want to sound pompous or holier than thou by saying this but....I have been taught, it's not that if you believe something is right or wrong that makes it so....Hitler believed extermination of an entire society was right. I know that's an extreme point but there has to be a definative line drawn at some point. It is up to each man to decide where that line is, but it is also up to each man to stand up when he sees that line is crossed.

I probably wouldn't holler and scream at fellers that make such long shots successfully, but I personally wouldn't want to hunt with them because their idea of ethical and mine don't match. I certainly would raise a fuss if they consistently messed up those shots...or weren't remotely qualified to take those shots (can they hit a coke can at that distance consistently?), etc.

And like Roger, I admit what some folks consider hipocrisy: I don't mind taking long shots at gophers or rabbits under certain conditions...and I consider a ham shot, by the right shooter/equipment, an effective shot on a hog.
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Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2006, 09:09:00 AM »
Yeah, you've gotta wonder how they decided to train for 100 yd shots (and why)- I guess its just the natural progression when compound shooters are taking longer and longer shots - from what I hear/read its not really that uncommon for compound shooters to take 50 or 60 yard shots...

I walked off 100 yds last night and imagined shooting a bow at that distance - thats a looooooong shot.....
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Offline JC

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2006, 09:22:00 AM »
Jason, yep, killed quite a few deer with my compound out to 50...and a few even further. A feller tends to get kinda cocky when you can consistently tee off a golf ball at 40....that is, until a few agonizing and unproductive blood trails break you of it. Lord knows what kinda crazy shots I would have taken if they had afforable accurate laser range finders back when I shot wheels. At one time, my thoughts were "if I can hold a pin on it, I can hit it."   "[dntthnk]"
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Offline JC

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2006, 11:40:00 AM »
After further contemplation, I should also probably add that there is a consideration of scale in my justifications. 40 yards is not too long to shoot at an elk....or a moose or other very large ungulate where the kill zone size, and speed at which they move their large mass, are proportional to a whitetail at considerably shorter range. And vice versa....the size of the projectile in comparison to the small game's size and larger "kill zone" (head, CNS, and heart/lung area) means that even a hit slightly off the mark has a high likely hood of incapacitating it.

There are obviously situational ethics involved from time to time too....a deer looking right at you on full alert at 20 yards is not nearly as "right" a shot as the same animal unaware and bedded at 30.
"Being there was good enough..." Charlie Lamb reflecting on a hunt
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Offline albertakid

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2006, 11:49:00 AM »
JC,

You are welcome in my camp anytime you just described my exact thoughts on bowhunting. I generally don't jump into threads like this, but if you have the commitment and desire to tune and learn to shoot your equipment 17.5 yards seems pretty silly.

Jordan
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Offline JasonV

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Re: Shooting at 40 yards
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2006, 10:23:00 AM »
I should probably clarify:  I'm not defending, and certainly not advocating 100 yd shots - I've never personally met anyone who could do it reliably.  
I'm just concerned about the determination of another hunter's "ethics"  - its just not as simple as an arbitrary distance.  100yds is certainly an extreme, but if a hunter can select the right situation, the right animal, the right conditions, and the right time, and reliably kill an animal at that distance, who are we to question his ethics?  
If those 4 hunters I described have never wounded/lost an animal at that distance and have killed 10 or 20, are you seriously going to say that its unethical????
If so, why??????  Because they might miss some day?  Many of the people on this site are more likely to wound an animal at their "comfortable" shooting distance, than some guys are at what seem like extreme distances... so whose ethics are in question?
I'd say neither.  Their judgement? Maybe, but not their ethics.


        -Why is it not unethical to shoot rabits, gophers, armadillos, etc at longer distances?


Not trying to ruffle any feathers - just enjoying the debate      :campfire:
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