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Author Topic: when bare shafting, cant or no canting  (Read 318 times)

Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2006, 08:22:00 PM »
As I've gotten older, I've gotten lazier (and probably dumber instead of wiser) so I rarely bother with bare shafting.  Even better is not having to spine the hex pine shafts for the stiff side.  

All my longbows are 50#'s and I've found that straight, 60#+ spined hex pines and 145-190 grain points and broadheads, and 6" semi-helical trad banana feathers, provide good flying arras provided I do my part with aiming and releasing.  Proper arrow aiming alignment, ala Jim Ploen's article, and heavy spined 550-600 grain arras - worx best fer me.  

Oh, yeah - canting the bow is a total requirement for instinctive barebow hunting/archery - IMO.
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Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2006, 10:24:00 PM »
As far as I can tell...I keep my body position the exact same way  when I cant...very consistant my buddies say...but when I shoot straight up and down I keep my head more in line but I draw to the exact same point
OL..  Im already shooting at 17 yards..how much further should I go...I try for the slight weak and high and the only way I can get that is by shooting straight up and down and when canting..I get stiff arrows..thats whats frustrating...thats what I feel is frustrating for us short draw guys who shoots the heavier weights and shorter draw..LOL
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Offline Tree Ghost

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2006, 10:53:00 PM »
Ok, I've got to ask a few questions as well.  I am new to the carbons and love them.  I bare shaft tune and can usually get a broadhead to do the bare shaft thing out to 20 yards or more.  I've been reading nock point high.  I always just set my nock poing to wear the bare shaft is sitting even along side a fletched shaft in the target.  I actually keep a bare shaft around to tell me what the heck is going on with my arrow flight at times.  Why do I want a high nock point, and how is it more forgiving?????

Offline O.L. Adcock

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2006, 11:28:00 PM »
Tree Ghost, I sure hope you're not shooting BH's bare shaft?? If you are and getting away with it, they must be very narrow?? Got any "marks" on the outside of your arrow shelf?? That's where the arrow hits when you get a poor release. Slightly string nock high will help avoid that contact but won't hurt good release accuracy. You're still going to miss with a poor release, just not as far.

Razorbak, you are basing that on shaft angle are you not?? Or relation to the "spot"? Ignore that, just go by the relationship of the groups. Your fletched shats are the refference point, not the spot. How far can you keep fletched shafts on a paper plate?? The FITA folks bare shaft out to 90 meters. That flight shooting stuff, I might as well be shooting bare shafts, fletching 1/2"x1/4" dove feathers!

Yep Rob, us old buzzards can just tell what they need!  :) ....O.L.
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Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2006, 01:18:00 AM »
OL...I see the shaft flying somewhat straight or slight nock left all the way to the spot on the target and the angle that it hits.   my fletched shafts I can keep them on  a spot and keep the bare and fletched shafts 3 to 5"  at about 17 yards and this is with a bow canted and hitting nock left for the bare shaft that is and the fletch shaft flys pretty darn good.. and no more room to shoot unless I head out side but with high winds and snow drifts I didnt want to frustrate myself any more than I already have and 90 meters...forget that..I cant even see the target at that distance...LOL
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Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2006, 01:57:00 AM »
Ok after re reading all the info Im gonna try everything again and see where I end up..if they are grouping from any distance I shoot them from (fletched) then i should be pretty close and not to worry how they stick into the target in a angle...man I love carbons but its so confusing..LOL
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Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2006, 05:39:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Razorbak:
Ok after re reading all the info Im gonna try everything again and see where I end up..if they are grouping from any distance I shoot them from (fletched) then i should be pretty close and not to worry how they stick into the target in a angle...man I love carbons but its so confusing..LOL
For bowhunting, I want the arras to straighten out as quick as possible for flicking through the brush without glancing off (hence I use big, long and tall helical fletching) ... and for best penetration into game vitals the arra should be entering in as straight as possible so as to aid the broadhead's efficiency ... even with good flying arras, a bad/sloppy release can add a buncha wobbles that'll take some distance for the fletches to do their job and fix the human mistake(s).
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Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2006, 07:51:00 AM »
from what i can see...the arrows with feathers fly absolutely beautiful...just the darn bareshafts that i cant get to do what' thier supposed to, and i just re read what i wrote above and i worded it all wrong...i meant to say that i shouldnt worry that much how the bareshaft sticks in a angle..seems like that is rthe general consensus
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Offline Pignut

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2006, 07:58:00 AM »
There's a lot of good info on this thread and OL's site really helped me out by focusing on the grouping and not the exact shaft angle.  I was bareshafting this past weekend with a new bow and used that method to dial it in until it was good enough for who it's for.  That being said, riddle me this... I have a good friend (Art you know him)who shoots a recurve that is 56#@29".  Every bow I hand the guy he shoots the same arrows with, never bother's to bareshaft (I'm not saying I recommend or endorse this).  I can hand him a 50# BBO, or a 60# hybrid longbow and he'll shoot the same arrows with beautiful flight and exceptional accuracy all the way out to 30yds (and beyond).  I have taken some of his arrows and bareshafted them out of these bows and they fly horribly, yet he consistently and humanely kills multiple deer every year.  This 'phenomenon' has really forced me, as Rob said, to focus more on my release and my form as that is the only only thing I can attribute this too.  It's amazing (or to us plebes, incredibly frustrating) what  consistent form and a clean release can do for your shooting.

Pete

Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2006, 08:06:00 AM »
yep he does...doesnt he shoot like 2117 or something...LOLbareshafting can be frustrating but man this little diddy has me stump...it seeems like for guys that have under a 28" draw it can be at a disadvantage
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Offline O.L. Adcock

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2006, 10:34:00 AM »
Yes Pete, with really good form even poorly spined arrows group well. For a guy like that, Ok, he gots a 3" group with poorly tuned arrows, he's get 1 1/2" with better tuning. Mine would go from 10" to 20"!  :)  With field tips, it's not a big deal, it's broadheads, wet feathers, short draws due to odd shooting positions and cold weather. All add up to doing pretty good in July on the range and unexplained screw ups in November.

Razorbak, sounds like you are trying to mix two methods, pick one of them and stick with it!

Like Rob said, feathers are there to correct any flight problems and they will do so within reason no matter if it's a tuning issue or human issue. The goal of good tuning is to get rid of the tuning issues leaving only the harder to fix form problems. A bare shaft won't stabilize as quick as when fletched. Even if initially shot "straight", they won't stay that way long, they'll swing off to one side, then the other but will stay fairly well on course. A poorly spined one will do the same thing except it will "plane" off course. Again, seeing that angle doesn't tell you if there is something wrong or not. The frustration comes from trying to fix something that may or may not be broke. If bare shafts will "group" with fletched field tips and wide broadheads at 30, 40 or 90 yards, who cares what "angle" they are in the target or what angle they were flying to get there. Even tiny fletching will correct that in 6'. It's kind of like having a car with a severly out of line front end, sure you can hold against it and drive straight, big feathers will do the same. It's covering up problems that should be fixed instead of having to fight it....O.L.
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Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2006, 10:59:00 AM »
ok i will stick to 1 method...thanks for the help
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Offline Pignut

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2006, 11:09:00 AM »
I agree with you totally O.L., I guess I am just scared to see what he would do with everything dialed in.  It's embarrassing enough to shoot with him as is!  He's got 40yrs of shooting experience over me and it seems to be working for him so I don't try and change him.  
I am still a stickler for bareshafts but I also use them as a tool for building my form and my release.  They allow me to see things that the fletching would hide and also help me determine if the tiller of a bow is as good as I can get it. In the end good bareshafting gives me much needed confidence in the equipment.  I go as far as to bareshaft every wood shaft I make up in order to allow for the discrepancy created by the inherent variabitlity of the natural material.

Art- I believe they are 2113's but I'm not sure.  I don't think it matters.  I won't even get into how high his nocking point is.

Pete

Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2006, 11:11:00 AM »
What OL said.  Big feathers cheat the arra tune, and it's always best to get bare shafts to fly decent (not perfect) from the get-go, then fletch up.  Unless yer old, crusty and lazy, and set in yer ways - like me.   :cool:
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Offline Tree Ghost

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2006, 11:23:00 AM »
Adcock, Yes I am shooting a broadhead bareshaft.  A stinger 150 grain.  I'm not following why this is a problem?  I get a bareshaft to fly with my fieldpoint, and when I get close, I switch and work things to make sure my broadhead flys.  Is there a concern?

Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2006, 11:35:00 AM »
Bareshafting tuning with broadheads?  Nope, not gonna happen, at least for me.  Even the slickest of broadheads are too much forward area with no tail feathers and the arras are gonna dance.  

Bare shaft with the appropriate pile point weight, do yer tweaking for optimum flight, fletch up and check for issues, pull the piles and go to broadheads. YMMV.
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Offline Tree Ghost

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2006, 11:40:00 AM »
Then, why is this working for me.  I thought that I would do this so that I would have some confidence when the snow and crap kill my feathers in the weather.  I started doing this last year, and actually changed a few things on my bow this winter, and did it again 2 weeks ago.

Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2006, 11:41:00 AM »
Im gonna redo everything and go from there...thanks all for your help and suggestion...Pete..either way ..Bud is a darn good shoot just as long as he stop breaking draws with his gorrilla draw..LOL
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Offline O.L. Adcock

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2006, 12:31:00 PM »
Tree Ghost, I don't know how wide those broadheads are but like Rob said, broadheads want to become the feathers and do the steering. If you have very good form and the arrows have a high FOC from a close enough distance, you can probably get away with it. Just being off a little bit in spine or mess up one release and that arrow is going to try to fly backwards! Some wild things can happen that will have you ducking under the car! I agree in tuning to the point that wet feathers isn't a problem but for safety's sake, do it with wet feathers!....O.L.
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Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2006, 01:07:00 PM »
And ... there are broadheads and then there are Broadheads - I like to get as close to a 3:1 ratio as possible, so that means Grizzly's, Ribby 190's, STOS (I think), Hills, and of course the Wensel tri's - to name just some.  Short wide blades are gonna be added trouble, IMO.
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Offline mindbender

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2006, 03:13:00 PM »
Now...why would the cant of the bow NOT affect the way you 'read' the groups?  

If paradox is the arrow righting it'self after leaving the bow and you cant the bow 20 degrees would you not then have to account for that in how you read the groups..ie a weak group would be right and low (20degree) where the opposite would be left and high (20 degree).  SO it could interfere with reading knock point???

seems right to me but.....
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Offline Tree Ghost

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2006, 03:44:00 PM »
Thanks guys.  I must be getting a little lucky.  The other reason that I started doing this was that I couldn't find a field point that weighed 150 grains for my Max 4s.  As close as I could find was a 145 that a guy in Idaho was having made for himself.  I also can't find a brass washer that fits this small diameter shaft so that I can add a little weight.  I've done ok out to 20-25 yards, but at 30 things start to get wild.  Thanks agin, and if you know of anyone that makes a 150 grain field point for the small diameter shaft, let me know.

Offline O.L. Adcock

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2006, 05:21:00 PM »
Mindbender, Lets say you are off a bit on your spine and they are weak grouping low right at 4 o'clock with the bow vertical. Cant the bow 20 degrees, they will now group at 5 o'clock. Paradox is NOT a left/right thing you can see, it's vibration/oscilation more like a guitar string being plucked. If you see wobbles, that's not paradox, that's the result of the timing of the paradox being off. This is more closely related to acoustics then another branch of physics. We are trying to adjust the timing of those oscilations so they are in-line where the arrow was pointed at the time of release. It's harmonics that arrow stiffness, length, and weight distribution effects.

Good tuning with the bow vertical they should group with and or overlap low right, cant the bow they still mix low right. The big thing is knowing a problem exists. If they group together a problem doesn't exist and canting the bow will make no difference.

I think some hold the bow vertical and for example their fletched arrows group to the left of a "spot", they cant the bow and they are online, they cant it more and they group right. That has nothing to do with tuning, what's happening is they aren't keeping the arrow under their eye. They are moving their rear sight around. The grouping left/right in the bare shaft planning method has nothing to do with where they group relative to a "spot", only how they group relative to each other when you are aiming at a spot. Poorly spined fletched field tips will fly close to where they are pointed, bare shafts or big broadheads will not. If fletched field tips group somewhere other then in line with the spot it cause we aren't pointing them there for what ever reason....O.L.
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