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Author Topic: when bare shafting, cant or no canting  (Read 1031 times)

Offline Ken999

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2006, 05:04:00 PM »
last arrow...keep taking away tip weight until a stiff indication is shown, then work back to a perfect/weak indication...

Offline O.L. Adcock

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2006, 06:14:00 PM »
Ken999 pretty much got it. For example if 145's group right in there, 125's better shoot stiff and 160's weak. If a fellow is going to cut the shafts, the same would apply, verify with point weight before cutting! In the example above start cutting 1/2" at a time to dial in the 160's.

Blane, depends on how good your groups are and at what distance. If the bare shafts tend to group low and right (rt handed shooter) with the middles say 6" apart at 20 yds, but your groups are 6", that's not bad. If your groups are 2" but middles 6" apart, that needs some work. Mostly if the groups overlap about 1/2 way, that'
s pretty good.

Olddogrib, I'd look for something like arrow nocks too tight or try putting another nock set below your arrow. I have to do that, somehow during my release I'll slide the arrow down a bit giving me up/down flyers. If you can get them in the target "straight", might very well be they are too stiff and hitting the shelf/riser giving you that left kick?? Have you tried a heavier point?? If they are stiff to the point of bumping the riser, it might take a lot of weight. ....O.L.
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Online SL

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2006, 06:43:00 PM »
Lots of good info.
I bare shaft first then when I'm close take some fletched field points and some 3 blade snuffers fletched and see how they shoot. The 3 blades always seem to tell me what I need to do. Specially regarding nock point.
SL

Offline last arrow

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2006, 07:05:00 PM »
Thanks Guys
"all knowledge is good. All knowledge opens doors. Ignorance is what closes them." Louis M. Profeta MD

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Offline O.L. Adcock

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2006, 07:09:00 PM »
You bet SL! I seldom bare shaft, I go straight the big BH's and can always drop to smaller/narrower later if they are the same weight. Two real godd reasons to bare shaft, if you are setting "target" arrows you aren't going to put BH's on, or if you are commited to one weight BH and don't want to buy more. Many folks don't have several dozen assorted BH's laying around to tune with and some are darned sure expensive! Bare shafting first will get a person in the ball park  :) ....O.L.
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Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2006, 08:22:00 PM »
As I've gotten older, I've gotten lazier (and probably dumber instead of wiser) so I rarely bother with bare shafting.  Even better is not having to spine the hex pine shafts for the stiff side.  

All my longbows are 50#'s and I've found that straight, 60#+ spined hex pines and 145-190 grain points and broadheads, and 6" semi-helical trad banana feathers, provide good flying arras provided I do my part with aiming and releasing.  Proper arrow aiming alignment, ala Jim Ploen's article, and heavy spined 550-600 grain arras - worx best fer me.  

Oh, yeah - canting the bow is a total requirement for instinctive barebow hunting/archery - IMO.
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Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2006, 10:24:00 PM »
As far as I can tell...I keep my body position the exact same way  when I cant...very consistant my buddies say...but when I shoot straight up and down I keep my head more in line but I draw to the exact same point
OL..  Im already shooting at 17 yards..how much further should I go...I try for the slight weak and high and the only way I can get that is by shooting straight up and down and when canting..I get stiff arrows..thats whats frustrating...thats what I feel is frustrating for us short draw guys who shoots the heavier weights and shorter draw..LOL
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Offline Tree Ghost

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2006, 10:53:00 PM »
Ok, I've got to ask a few questions as well.  I am new to the carbons and love them.  I bare shaft tune and can usually get a broadhead to do the bare shaft thing out to 20 yards or more.  I've been reading nock point high.  I always just set my nock poing to wear the bare shaft is sitting even along side a fletched shaft in the target.  I actually keep a bare shaft around to tell me what the heck is going on with my arrow flight at times.  Why do I want a high nock point, and how is it more forgiving?????

Offline O.L. Adcock

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2006, 11:28:00 PM »
Tree Ghost, I sure hope you're not shooting BH's bare shaft?? If you are and getting away with it, they must be very narrow?? Got any "marks" on the outside of your arrow shelf?? That's where the arrow hits when you get a poor release. Slightly string nock high will help avoid that contact but won't hurt good release accuracy. You're still going to miss with a poor release, just not as far.

Razorbak, you are basing that on shaft angle are you not?? Or relation to the "spot"? Ignore that, just go by the relationship of the groups. Your fletched shats are the refference point, not the spot. How far can you keep fletched shafts on a paper plate?? The FITA folks bare shaft out to 90 meters. That flight shooting stuff, I might as well be shooting bare shafts, fletching 1/2"x1/4" dove feathers!

Yep Rob, us old buzzards can just tell what they need!  :) ....O.L.
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Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2006, 01:18:00 AM »
OL...I see the shaft flying somewhat straight or slight nock left all the way to the spot on the target and the angle that it hits.   my fletched shafts I can keep them on  a spot and keep the bare and fletched shafts 3 to 5"  at about 17 yards and this is with a bow canted and hitting nock left for the bare shaft that is and the fletch shaft flys pretty darn good.. and no more room to shoot unless I head out side but with high winds and snow drifts I didnt want to frustrate myself any more than I already have and 90 meters...forget that..I cant even see the target at that distance...LOL
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Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2006, 01:57:00 AM »
Ok after re reading all the info Im gonna try everything again and see where I end up..if they are grouping from any distance I shoot them from (fletched) then i should be pretty close and not to worry how they stick into the target in a angle...man I love carbons but its so confusing..LOL
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Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2006, 05:39:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Razorbak:
Ok after re reading all the info Im gonna try everything again and see where I end up..if they are grouping from any distance I shoot them from (fletched) then i should be pretty close and not to worry how they stick into the target in a angle...man I love carbons but its so confusing..LOL
For bowhunting, I want the arras to straighten out as quick as possible for flicking through the brush without glancing off (hence I use big, long and tall helical fletching) ... and for best penetration into game vitals the arra should be entering in as straight as possible so as to aid the broadhead's efficiency ... even with good flying arras, a bad/sloppy release can add a buncha wobbles that'll take some distance for the fletches to do their job and fix the human mistake(s).
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Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2006, 07:51:00 AM »
from what i can see...the arrows with feathers fly absolutely beautiful...just the darn bareshafts that i cant get to do what' thier supposed to, and i just re read what i wrote above and i worded it all wrong...i meant to say that i shouldnt worry that much how the bareshaft sticks in a angle..seems like that is rthe general consensus
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Offline Pignut

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2006, 07:58:00 AM »
There's a lot of good info on this thread and OL's site really helped me out by focusing on the grouping and not the exact shaft angle.  I was bareshafting this past weekend with a new bow and used that method to dial it in until it was good enough for who it's for.  That being said, riddle me this... I have a good friend (Art you know him)who shoots a recurve that is 56#@29".  Every bow I hand the guy he shoots the same arrows with, never bother's to bareshaft (I'm not saying I recommend or endorse this).  I can hand him a 50# BBO, or a 60# hybrid longbow and he'll shoot the same arrows with beautiful flight and exceptional accuracy all the way out to 30yds (and beyond).  I have taken some of his arrows and bareshafted them out of these bows and they fly horribly, yet he consistently and humanely kills multiple deer every year.  This 'phenomenon' has really forced me, as Rob said, to focus more on my release and my form as that is the only only thing I can attribute this too.  It's amazing (or to us plebes, incredibly frustrating) what  consistent form and a clean release can do for your shooting.

Pete

Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2006, 08:06:00 AM »
yep he does...doesnt he shoot like 2117 or something...LOLbareshafting can be frustrating but man this little diddy has me stump...it seeems like for guys that have under a 28" draw it can be at a disadvantage
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Offline O.L. Adcock

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2006, 10:34:00 AM »
Yes Pete, with really good form even poorly spined arrows group well. For a guy like that, Ok, he gots a 3" group with poorly tuned arrows, he's get 1 1/2" with better tuning. Mine would go from 10" to 20"!  :)  With field tips, it's not a big deal, it's broadheads, wet feathers, short draws due to odd shooting positions and cold weather. All add up to doing pretty good in July on the range and unexplained screw ups in November.

Razorbak, sounds like you are trying to mix two methods, pick one of them and stick with it!

Like Rob said, feathers are there to correct any flight problems and they will do so within reason no matter if it's a tuning issue or human issue. The goal of good tuning is to get rid of the tuning issues leaving only the harder to fix form problems. A bare shaft won't stabilize as quick as when fletched. Even if initially shot "straight", they won't stay that way long, they'll swing off to one side, then the other but will stay fairly well on course. A poorly spined one will do the same thing except it will "plane" off course. Again, seeing that angle doesn't tell you if there is something wrong or not. The frustration comes from trying to fix something that may or may not be broke. If bare shafts will "group" with fletched field tips and wide broadheads at 30, 40 or 90 yards, who cares what "angle" they are in the target or what angle they were flying to get there. Even tiny fletching will correct that in 6'. It's kind of like having a car with a severly out of line front end, sure you can hold against it and drive straight, big feathers will do the same. It's covering up problems that should be fixed instead of having to fight it....O.L.
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Offline Razorbak

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2006, 10:59:00 AM »
ok i will stick to 1 method...thanks for the help
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Offline Pignut

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2006, 11:09:00 AM »
I agree with you totally O.L., I guess I am just scared to see what he would do with everything dialed in.  It's embarrassing enough to shoot with him as is!  He's got 40yrs of shooting experience over me and it seems to be working for him so I don't try and change him.  
I am still a stickler for bareshafts but I also use them as a tool for building my form and my release.  They allow me to see things that the fletching would hide and also help me determine if the tiller of a bow is as good as I can get it. In the end good bareshafting gives me much needed confidence in the equipment.  I go as far as to bareshaft every wood shaft I make up in order to allow for the discrepancy created by the inherent variabitlity of the natural material.

Art- I believe they are 2113's but I'm not sure.  I don't think it matters.  I won't even get into how high his nocking point is.

Pete

Online Rob DiStefano

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2006, 11:11:00 AM »
What OL said.  Big feathers cheat the arra tune, and it's always best to get bare shafts to fly decent (not perfect) from the get-go, then fletch up.  Unless yer old, crusty and lazy, and set in yer ways - like me.   :cool:
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Offline Tree Ghost

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Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2006, 11:23:00 AM »
Adcock, Yes I am shooting a broadhead bareshaft.  A stinger 150 grain.  I'm not following why this is a problem?  I get a bareshaft to fly with my fieldpoint, and when I get close, I switch and work things to make sure my broadhead flys.  Is there a concern?

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