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Author Topic: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?  (Read 1909 times)

Offline Shawn Leonard

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2005, 07:51:00 AM »
I shoot with my kness bent slightly also, but when ishoot a recurve(which I do 99% of the time) I do not bend at the waist unless the shot dictates that I do, like limb clearance or shot angle. I do however bend quite a bit at the waist whenI shoot a longbow and I cant the bow a lot more with the lonbbow as well. I agree with Terry, do what works for you. I have become a decent shot over the years, but am still improving and willing to try anything to shopot better, but it has to work for me and what does may not work for someone else. Shawn
Shawn

Offline Randy Koleno

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2005, 09:45:00 AM »
I also bend my knees and lean a bit. I just feel more balanced that way. The guys I shoot with that use a point of aim system tell me they stay upright and use a low anchor point so they can see the arrow tip better(Olympic Style?). I think I shoot instinctive, if I intentionally try to use the arrow to aim, it gets ugly quick. I probably gap or gunbarrel to some extent. Also, when I lean over the arrow, it hits in line left/right. When I stand upright, I hit consistantly left. Experiment to find out what works for you. I never did find a use for the swing draw though.

Offline Shawn Leonard

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2005, 11:28:00 AM »
I agree with the part about being consistent on targets and good instinctive or gap shooters don't score well is the fact it is not interesting to them. I shot with Tom and a bunch from here and even doing 3-D it is not all that exciting for me. I shot ten- or twelve different bows to keep it interesting. I know if I had stuck with one, I would of shot as well as anyone, but I also would of been bored out of my mind. I have my own way of shooting and of having fun and that is what works for me, not someone elses style of either. It is all good!!  Shawn
Shawn

Online Ron LaClair

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2005, 12:04:00 PM »
Fred's teachings on his shooting style are geared towards hunting, not target archery. I never could understand why Fred gets so much criticism for teaching a style that works well for him.

Nobody criticizes Fred Bears shooting style even though his style and G Fred's are very simular, but then Fred Bear didn't put out a book and video on the subject. If he had he'd probably get roasted also.   ;)

Fred has been criticized for squating and hunching when he shoots. I've shot with him many times over the years and I think the squating and hunching is grossly exaggerated. But lets say that he does bend his knees and lean at the waist, I call that the "predator mode". It's a natural body position when stalking or shooting at an animal.

Bottom line is that no one shooting style is for everyone. If it works for you fine but just because it doesn't work for you, that doesn't mean it's not a good style.

This is just my opinion but I think if a person squats and hunches a little he may just be a little more successful in his hunting endevors than a person who stands up straight like a target archer.    ;)
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Offline Montauks

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2005, 12:21:00 PM »
Freds "stance" , bending at the knees and I believe he also keeps his rear foot at a close to 45 degree angle to his front foot is a classic martial arts stance, it keeps you more stable and balanced and therefore makes good sense for hunting.

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Offline Rod Parsons

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2005, 12:24:00 PM »
Shawn,
I might perhaps disagree about the gap shooters. Gap shooting is after all a consciously worked out system of aiming, predicated on knowing the distance, which is essentially similar to old fashioned target point of aim shooting where you actually know the distance before you start.
It will be far easier for a gap shooter to transition to target shooting than for a true instinctive.
For the instinctive, being able to put a number to the distance is most likely a distraction. It's my opinion that for a real instinctive there are only two distances, near enough and too far.
When he comes up to full draw it will either feel right or it will not.
Although the point may be in his field of vision his concentration on the mark will be such that he is not consciously aware of the gap.
Rod.
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Offline Hackbow

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2005, 12:26:00 PM »
If I may, I'd like to attempt a little clearing up of the issue (at least the way I see it).

1) I think we all agree that Mr. Asbell's style is his own and the "bend & hunch" aspect is specifically geared toward hunting situations.

2) I think we would all agree that target archery form is based in consistency and removal of variables.

3) I think we all would also agree that while hunting, you can be (most likely WILL be) in a position that is different than a classic target archer's pose.

If we assume the above to be true, common sense would lead us to believe that we need to be prepared for the variables we may encounter, because we know that in hunting we cannot control a number of those variables. So it would make sense from, a hunting standpoint, to be in a flexible position (knees bent, slightly hunched) where we were capable of pulling off a shot and not spooking the game.

I've read one of his books and adopted a few of his ideas. It made me a slightly better shooter, but it also helped me gain a bit more confidence in those hunting situations. I think those that would criticize Mr. Asbell for his comments should take note that he's not wearing bright white clothing and sporting stabilizers on his bows.  :)

Offline 8th Dwarf

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2005, 01:05:00 PM »
Asbell bends at the knees because he is too tall to see under the tree limbs.  Normal sized people do not need to do that.

Personally, I think it's a lousy form habit and uncomfortable.  I tried it and my shooting suffered for it.

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Offline frankb

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2005, 01:27:00 PM »
Good thread... I'm gonna weigh in just long enough so I get an e-mail reminder when a new post is made.  

One thing about this site... it's full of info... it never stops.  I love it.   :)  

-frankb
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Offline Rod Parsons

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2005, 01:52:00 PM »
I will say that shooting instinctive I do find myself more often than not  leaning forwards a little as my concentration peaks in synch with coming to a length, so he may well have a point about "pointing". No pun intended.
Without wanting to get too high falutin' it is probably true to describe this as a feeling of "falling" into the mark.
Come to think of it, that could be scary on a treestand, but it's not likely to be an issue living over here...
Rod.
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Offline Bible5

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2005, 03:26:00 PM »
Hey Paul Brunner! Your video on instinctive shooting has helped me ALOT and I think it's really the best one out there! Thank you. Why don't you put out a new updated expanded version?  
    When I was watching the Asbell video I thought he was saying that by lowering your torso, by bending your knees, you would shoot better. I was simply wondering "why?" I'm only 5'7" so maybe I'm already down low enough to the ground!
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness" Psalm 45:6

Offline Shawn Leonard

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2005, 09:06:00 PM »
Rod, disagree about the gap shooters or at least me!! I do not even think of yardage at all. I just pull up and see the arrow in my peripheral vision and shoot, I may not be a true gap shooter as they say Gap shooter put the point under the target, I do not do that. I, like Ron LaClair said have devised my own method both in form and my sight picture. It works for me, I am not great on targets of any type, but hold my own. I do kill plenty of game though, even though I have some bad slumps every year. I talked myself out of shooting good a least twice this year. Everyone who knows me will tell you I am good at that!! Talking that is!!(LOL!!)  Have Fun !!  Shawn
Shawn

Offline Reiver

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2005, 09:33:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Rod, disagree about the gap shooters or at least me!! I do not even think of yardage at all. I just pull up and see the arrow in my peripheral vision and shoot, I may not be a true gap shooter as they say Gap shooter put the point under the target, I do not do that. I, like Ron LaClair said have devised my own method both in form and my sight picture. It works for me, I am not great on targets of any type, but hold my own. I do kill plenty of game though, even though I have some bad slumps every year. I talked myself out of shooting good a least twice this year. Everyone who knows me will tell you I am good at that!! Talking that is!!(LOL!!)  Have Fun !!  Shawn
Shawn, your method of shooting sounds very much like my own. I can't do a straight gap method, because I don't always shoot at the same target from the same place. I yank back, get a good site picture, and that's what I rely upon to aim my arrow. I sort of see the path the arrow might take in my mind, at certain distances this has become almost automatic. At times, when my arrow comes into my vision I just release and it hits. I think that my mind has picked up on some of my more frequent shots, and when the sight picture is recalled it's almost instinctive. I can't measure yardage extremely well, and I have found that my method works better for me. It does take a lot concentration, however, and I don't think I could compete with a fita archer past a certain point. I could probably do pretty well with my first two or three shots, however.
"A war without fire is like a sausage without mustard" - Henry V

Online Ron LaClair

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2005, 09:35:00 PM »
Quote
I have seen people take Asbel's method way too seriously and as a result, have no hope in harvesting any game animal humanely or shooting consistently.  
I don't believe that for a minute. That's like saying if you shoot three fingers under you have no hope in harvesting any game animal humanely or shooting consistently. Or if you cant your bow, or close one eye....

Any shooting style is worthwhile if it improves your shooting. Any style you try you'd better take it seriously...a hap hazard effort just won't cut it. Give it a fair chance then if it's not for you ,..move on to something else.

Asbel's style is nothing new. Many people, hunters mostly have been shooting a bow very similar to that way for at least a few hundred years.

Have you ever seen the hunters in New Guinea shoot monkeys out of the tops of tall trees using a pinch type grip on the string, using cane arrows as long as the bow. They don't anchor and they don't hold, but they sure are successful in harvesting game.
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When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice.

Offline Shawn Leonard

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2005, 09:48:00 PM »
Like Ron said, no hope!! Bull!!! I have seen guys who have lousy form and walk like a gorilla, but kill game consistently and shoot consistently, "no method is better than another, just different" that's all. Shawn
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Online southpawshooter

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2005, 10:09:00 PM »
I agree with Ron LaClair.  I have both of Mr. Asbell's books and can understand where some misunderstanding could enusue.  The pictures and text do exagerrate the 'bend and hunch', but I believe this is for illustration purposes only.  I have seen Mr. Asbell shoot and he in no way bends as much as in the photos. Sometimes in an effort to get across an idea in print exaggeration is necessary.  Just do not take it so literally and the style will make sense.

Everyone is built differently, and one style from one person may not fit you.  If you take some points from each instructor that make sense and fit you, then you will have your own individual style.  Archery in this respect is no different than other artforms.  A close parallel is music -  good musicians take bits and pieces from each of their mentors or influences and meld these into their own unique and individual musical style.
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Offline Archer 1

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2005, 11:23:00 PM »
I agree with Ron 100%, you have to do what works for you. I was going though a 3 D shoot a few years ago, with a bunch of guys, one of them was a instructor helping a new guy to the sport. The new fella watched me shoot, and said to the instructor, "He isn't shooting the way you said I should." The guy told him,"Don't pay any mind to the way he is shooting, He's got lousy form, but he can outshoot anyone here. What works for him, probably won't work for you." Once you find what works for you, stick with it.
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Offline Rod Parsons

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2005, 04:03:00 AM »
I reckon there's a lot more folks that shoot a little bit of this method, a little bit of that method than there are 100% pure gap or 100% instinctive.
I've also met folks that have to know the distance and folks that absolutely don't want to put a figure too it.
Being able to do it is more important than what you call it.
The best practice is probably to take single shots from different situations and distances, rather than shooting groups, but with this exception.
I firmly believe that some time spent learning to shoot tighter groups beyond your comfortable distance can pay off by tightening up your shooting in general.
Distance after all will amplify your errors and make them more evident.
I also place value on practising form and rhythm on a bare boss from time to time, separating issues of form from those of hitting, before bringing them together again.
Bare boss is kind of like meditating, where you can embed some good body memory to build your core form without distraction.
Then take it stump shooting.
You can also practice concentration and how you look at something whenever you have a moment, you don't even need a bow in your hand.
Whatever you choose to do, it is an ongoing process where perfection is the hoped for destination, but the more you travel the more you realise that it is the journey itself that has value.
Rod.
It's meant to be simple, not easy...

Offline Rod Parsons

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2005, 04:24:00 AM »
Shawn,
This may seem like hair splitting, but I would suggest that there is a distinction between "seeing" your point in your field of vision as opposed to "looking directly at it."
My experience leads me to suspect that your better shots might result from being aware your point in your field of vision but whilst looking at the mark.
I often say to onlookers and participants that the arrow will most often go where you are looking, the real knack is in learning how to look properly when you shoot.
Rod.
It's meant to be simple, not easy...

Offline Reiver

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Re: G. Fred Asbell..bending knees..Why?
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2005, 08:23:00 AM »
Since you asked, Thunderbow, I practice probably every other day. I have a track set up in my back yard that allows me to shoot fifteen yards. I usually only use this for form or to work on keeping my bow arm pushing towards the target. Depending on the weather, I go out to my cousin's in South Dakota (I live in Iowa), he has 250 acres on the Missour river, and I go roving. My problem with shooting lots of arrows at the same target is that I quit paying attention to what I'm doing after awhile. I start thinking about work, or my girlfriend, or what I have to do later in the day, etc. When I work on form, on my track in the back yard, I usually pick a spot on the bag, shoot one arrow, retrieve it. It allows me to keep myself focussed for a little while longer.  I've found that for me, it's just better if I only practice for as long as I keep my mind on the task at hand. After that, I believe that continuing actually harms my overall performance. I'm not an expert or even a good archer, but if you've got any tips on maintaining focus on the same target for more than three to six shots, I'de be more than happy to listen.   :)  I'm like a waiter at the Hard Rock Cafe, tips are always welcome!
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