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Author Topic: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory  (Read 3459 times)

Offline BillJ

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2006, 07:51:00 PM »
:knothead:  

Anybody have thoughts on my using veneer for backing this bow, before I head for my messy shop and ruin another bow?  If not, I shall forge ahead and post the results in a few days. I'm sure it will be a smashing success!     :help:  

Bill J
"Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved."

Online George Tsoukalas

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2006, 07:54:00 PM »
Sorry. Never used it. Have used silk,burlap and rawhide.
Jawge

Offline Tim Clark

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2006, 08:36:00 PM »
Bill J, veneer can be weird stuff as far as grain orientation. Is it possible for you to post some good pics of the veneer? I'm pretty sure I know the type you're referring to, it's available at a couple of local hardware stores here as well. But, no use second guessing.

Also, does the veneer have adhesive on the back? Sometimes, it's not what you want it to be. Lots of variables when you don't know what the glue is.
Effort only fully releases its reward after a person refuses to quit.

Offline BillJ

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2006, 08:46:00 PM »
Yes, this veneer has a pre-glued backing.  I was going to ignore that and just use Titebond II. I'll try and post a pic shortly.

Thanks!
"Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved."

Offline Tim Clark

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2006, 09:20:00 PM »
I think it would be best to wait for other comments besides mine. I am not certain that the TB2 will make any difference, in the respect that the other glue is present and is, therefore, the adhesive that will be the weakest link. TB2 isn't going to over-rule or displace that existing adhesive. Think of it this way - it's almost the same thing as having paraffin on one board that you want to glue to another. Will it work? No, I don't think so. Yes, I am aware that paraffin isn't a glue, but in this case the same principal applies. I don't think it'd be a good bond. At all.

That said, I don't know if the unknown adhesive can or even should be removed. Can it be? Probably, maybe acetone, maybe adhesive remover as long as it doesn't leave residue behind that make things worse than the adhesive did. Should it be removed, or will it damage the veneer's integrity in the process?

I would strongly suggest that you take a small piece of you r base wood and a small piece of the veneer. Try a glue up the way you intended. Do another mini glue up with just the veneer. Then another with the adhesive removed, as many ways as practical for you, and see how the veneer holds up, then apply just the TB2. In all cases, make it so the the pieces can bend through a simulated drawn arc after they're dried or cured so that you can tell if it'll hold up under that kind of tension.

A lot of tedious work? Sure it is, but how much worse would it be to get the bow somewhere along the process to completion and find out then that the chosen way was the wrong way?

Like I said, wait for a voice of authority. Mine is only giving these suggestions and you have to find out. Sorry, I wish I HAD tried some of that veneer myslef, that way I would be able to give you definite answers.

My two cents... which may not be worth quite that much.
Effort only fully releases its reward after a person refuses to quit.

Offline Jeff Strubberg

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2006, 01:33:00 AM »
Just to go against the wind, I wouldn't back that bow.

Hickory will allow one heck of a lot of runout without trouble.  I have a 67" hickory bow that's too narrow (1 1/4"), badly tillered (too much bend at center limb) and that I draw to 57 pounds at 29 inches.  It has runout at least as bad as yours, only covering the entirety of BOTH limbs.  

The bow is going on three years old now.  No problems at all.
"Teach him horsemanship and archery, and teach him to despise all lies"          -Herodotus

Offline Tim Clark

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2006, 09:12:00 AM »
I agree, Jeff. I guess I got so caught up in answering the veneer question that I lost sight of the big picture.

BillJ, the choice is of course yours, but given that you're not exactly a novice I think that you'd be fine to leave it unbacked.

If you want to experiment with the veneer, I'd suggest the same as my comments above.
Effort only fully releases its reward after a person refuses to quit.

Offline Jeff Strubberg

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2006, 08:32:00 PM »
Here's an idea on the veneer, if you are set on backing the bow....

Flip it over.  Use TB2 to glue the clean side to the stave, then use acetone to clean the pre-glue junk off after everything sets up.  No worries about glue incompatibility that way.

Worst case, you can always sand off the pre-glue to get a finishable surface.
"Teach him horsemanship and archery, and teach him to despise all lies"          -Herodotus

Offline Dano

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2006, 08:47:00 PM »
If the back has not started to lift a splinter yet you may not need to back it, but it doesn't take much of a backing to keep it from lifting splinters. I've used tissue paper with success, you don't need much.
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green

Offline Tim Clark

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2006, 09:31:00 PM »
I was thinking that too, Jeff, except I got to wondering if the acetone would have a deleterious effect on the TB2. I know it's "supposed" to be inert once cured, but the thing that bothered me about it is that the danged veneer that BillJ is talking about is extremely thin - you can see light through it - and I'm wondering if it wouldn't possibly saturate the backing and cause failure. Just a thought.

Dano, I'm new to backings (at least on bows), and it amazes me that tissue paper can have such an effect as that. I suppose it is a "single ring" though, huh?  :p  

Hey, BillJ, looking forward to reading about your next move!  :bigsmyl:
Effort only fully releases its reward after a person refuses to quit.

Offline Jeff Strubberg

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2006, 12:21:00 AM »
Well, acetone flashed off so quickly that you qould have to really go overboard to even wet the veneer, much less saturate it.  

Applied to a rag and worked with a bit of elbow grease, I'm not sure you could force it through the veneer before it evaporated.
"Teach him horsemanship and archery, and teach him to despise all lies"          -Herodotus

Offline BillJ

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2006, 08:34:00 PM »
I appreciate all the good feedback.  After reading the responses, I'm going to go ahead and try leaving it unbacked.

Here are some new pics, this time with the sheet finally hung behind it for Mr. Clark's sake.     :D

Here it is braced.
     

And in this pic it's pulled to 25 inches.  

   

So, what do you guys and gals see?  The bow is pulling about 45 lbs at 24 inches right now, and I'm targetting 50 lbs+ at 28 inches.  After I worked it a bit on the tree this afternoon, I shot about a dozen arrows through it. After that, I unstrung it and it showed about 1 1/2 inches of set, which is about what I've come to expect, I guess.  I put it back in the hotbox, and looked at it a few minutes ago after it had been in there for several hours, and the set is greatly reduced... again as I expected.

Just looking for tillering comments, I guess.  Any advice is as always appreciated.

Thanks!
Bill J
"Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved."

Offline Dano

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2006, 08:44:00 PM »
Looks like the right limb is a little stiff at mid limb.
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Red Green

Offline BillJ

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2006, 09:04:00 PM »
Thanks Dano.  Appreciate the feedback.  I thought that side looked a little stiff, too, but I thought it was stiff about 8 inches out of the fade (right where that cord hanging from the shelf above is pointing), and about 8 inches from the tip.  However, that tip is the one where the grain runout is, so I've been hesitant to get it bending too much.  Do you think I should go ahead and try to get the tip bending a little more?
"Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved."

Offline Tim Clark

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2006, 10:26:00 PM »
Just my two cents, but I think that the stiffness in the right limb may not be as bad as it looks in the photo due to the shadow making it look that way. I had to use some "mental whiteout" to see it.

What I do notice is the left limb seems to have a somewhat/slightly sharp start right off the fade at the end of the handle. It otherwise has a nice arc to it, which at first drew my eyes away from that spot.

Thank you for the sheet, I suppose that since it's in my "honor," I get to name it? How about, "Senator Byrd?" (He used to wear a sheet back in his Klan days! lol!)

Oh and hey -- look at that!!! All those power tools that you put up on the shelf? Well, take a close look now, and you'll see that a few of them have their little cords hanging over the edge to get themselves an admiring view of your work!   :bigsmyl:
Effort only fully releases its reward after a person refuses to quit.

Offline Tim Clark

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2006, 10:36:00 PM »
BTW, that's a terrific looking brace profile. Very nice.
Effort only fully releases its reward after a person refuses to quit.

Offline NorthShoreLB

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2006, 10:50:00 PM »
Nice arc, hard for me to see much wrong in it  :knothead:  

Did you think about tempering the belly ? to figth the set ?

  Manny
"Almost none knows the keen sense of satisfaction which comes from taking game with their own homemade weapons"

-JAY MASSEY-

Offline BillJ

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2006, 01:25:00 AM »
Tim - I agree that this bow looks to be bending a little too quickly out of the fades.  I did the same thing on the last bow, and I thing that might be a major contributor to the set it took, and this one is taking.  

Manny - I have been reading your posts about belly tempering.  Interesting.  Do you think it is too late to apply it to his bow?  It is pretty much in the final stages of tillering, I think.
"Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved."

Offline NorthShoreLB

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2006, 02:10:00 AM »
Did you read Timo's HHB thread ?

I thinkhe was at the shooting stage, and look what a recovery.

Just read a thread by Steve (Badger) He rescued an old mulberry with 4" of set, after belly tempering and retillering, the bow is even , no set.

I was able to get rid of more than 1" of set on old bows that shot 100's of arrows.

Yeah you still have plenty of time, remember that tempering the belly probably will put about 10# back on that bow.

If you need more info, just ask, and if I can help I will, if not I'll refer you to more experiaced bowyers in the matter.


     Manny
"Almost none knows the keen sense of satisfaction which comes from taking game with their own homemade weapons"

-JAY MASSEY-

Offline Timo

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Re: RIP - Latest build-along - Hickory
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2006, 07:19:00 AM »
Bill, I just saved a 58" osage with this method.badger and I have been discussing this on my thread "century stave 58".(page 2&3)He states that he hasn't had the best results with this method, on hickory.

Tiller looks well. I'm with Tim Clark about the shadow lines.
(Enny o yuns know ware thu heart o a stumpytail izz??)

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