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Author Topic: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......  (Read 4821 times)

Offline horseapple

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2005, 11:09:00 PM »
Lennie, Why catalysed varnish? Because its damn tough stuff  :D  HOB, Don't tell me Deans using my design  "[tunglaff]"

Offline the Ferret

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2005, 11:25:00 PM »
Dano my draw is 27.

Most of the bows I see listed that carry their width to 1/3 or even mid limb are wider than my favorite design which carries a narrower width but further out the limbs, which allows the limbs to be a little thicker which I relate to durability. Yet with the bend coming into the handle I get most of the wood working. I know that the layer of sinew I prefer can cause problems in moisture laden conditions but the rest of the time helps the bow maintain it's profile much better. Over the long run I see that as maintaining performance rather than giving up cast to performance robbing follow.

Jawge I think you mean a 7 1/2" non bending section and not a 7 1/2" handle plus a 1" fade and a 2 1/2" fade right?

I think we are definitly seeing some trends here that say something when experience bowyers when asked to pick a design they would have to live with for a long period of time.

The use of overlays suprises me when it is an added glued on item that could come off, and adds weight to the limb tip. Ok you tip overlay guys..what does the tip overlay do for you or is it strictly cosmetic? (since osage doesn't need reinforcement at the tip)
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Offline Mark Baker

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2005, 11:34:00 PM »
Seems like every time I think I'm making the perrrrfect bow, it turns out less than so, and then I pick up a piece of "reject" and make a real slayer....

You guys do a lot more measuring than me!  :D  

I prefer osage, 64 inches nock to nock, a bulbous handle about 4 inches I guess, fades flow to the limbs which are semi rounded....width no more than 11/2 wide....about a third or so, tapering down to half inch tips.  I like 65 to 70 pounds, unbacked, rattan grip and floppy rest, maybe tip overlays, but not required.  

Sure is a lot of us in the same "length" category!  I tend to have a sloppy release at times, and 64 inches works without being too long for me.
My head is full of wanderlust, my quiver's full of hope.  I've got the urge to walk the prairie and chase the antelope! - Nimrod Neurosis

Offline Jeff Strubberg

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2005, 11:35:00 PM »
One thing you left off that influences every decision heavily is climate.

I wouldn't have chosen osage or foregone a backing if it weren't for the local humidity.  Of course, once osage was chosen, it affected about half of the design parameters.....
"Teach him horsemanship and archery, and teach him to despise all lies"          -Herodotus

Offline horseapple

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2005, 11:39:00 PM »
who said you didn't need overlays on osage  :smileystooges:  no really the string type is the deciding factor when adding overlays, if only using B-50 never would you need overlays, but with some of more harsh, non stretching material you should always consider a super hard wood, antler or horn for an added protection from string wear... moisture is not the factor on overlays as it would be on sinew bows  "[tunglaff]"  

Joe Don

Offline trashwood

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2005, 12:20:00 AM »
Well there is has been a book written about the bow I would build  :) ...  just see _Hunting the Osage Bow_ but ah ah ole what's his name  :)

rusty

Offline Madpigslayer

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2005, 12:23:00 AM »
airight...I remember Cliff Huntington in a thread talking about the thread posters that like a dog had to "piss on every thread" so...hold the drumroll...and let me take a pee here...thanks in advance.   :D  

since I aint no bowyer, my answer is..."anything that Dean makes" but at the expence of being a cop out...dims unknown, but in MY climate, hickory lightly backed with sinew would be a dragon slayer. BIG DRAGONS too. I would prolly steal the dims from one of you guys. but the climate would make me right. dryer than a popcorn fart.

which begs the question...why not a straight taper from fade to tip??? with my popcorn fart dry sinew backed hickory at ohhhhh...say....68" of pigslaying power?

(seriously, I always wonder why the straight taper isnt done more. I mean really...why???)
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Offline clintopher

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2005, 07:25:00 AM »
I'm hardly experienced so all I can offer are questions.  I've noticed there isn't much bamboo backing going on.  Why is that?  Is it a durability issue?  There's not much hickory backing going on either.  Is that because of humidity?

If durability is an issue, why not a horn bow?  Too much PITA to make?

Clint

Offline the Ferret

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2005, 08:07:00 AM »
Joe Don very good point about other string materials and overlays..see the value of this thread is shining thru. I didn't go back and look to see if all the guys using string material other than dacron were the overlay users.But it is obviously a design consideration.

Yes Jeff and Madpig et al...climatic conditions are a consideration as are availability of certain woods in certain areas. Notice 3 of the guys who do not have access to osage chose elm, ipe and vine maple...locally available woods to them

Clintopher..when I started this thread I originally said designing the ultimate "selfbow", which technically would have left out all backings so I changed it to "wooden bow" to allow hickory and boo backings, but for the most part anything added to a bow ie: glued on or together is another potential place a bow can fail. A sinew backing can get wet and release, boo backings and such have a history of failure beyond the norm for an air backed piece of good wood in a single growth ring back and glue lines are another typical place of failure. Most bowyers choosing a design that they have to live with over a period of years are going to choose the simplest design which happens to be the most durable, an unbacked bow. I am a little suprised at the lack of rawhide backings mentioned.

I'm trying to tally this up but some of you have answered kind of wishy washy like 62-66" or "shortish rigid handle" or "leather glue up or floppy" or "2 1/2-3" fades". When answering pick a length and pick a rest material please.
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Offline the Ferret

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2005, 08:15:00 AM »
You know maybe some of the wishy washy answers just go to prove that the actual numbers aren't all that important to those bowyers..the bow could be 62, 63, 64 ,65 or 66  and the fades 2 2 1/2 or 3 whatever it comes out it comes out and being empiracle isn't necessary???? hmmmmmm

Madpig the straight taper from fades is a very attractive design, Bro Randy's favorite and the BL I just made for DCM is of that design. But I think John Scifres explained his reason fairly well on page 2? that carrying the width for 1/3 of the limb gives more working wood where you need it to avoid set and lets the rest of the limb be light for performance.
There is always someone that knows more than you, and someone that knows less than you, so you can always learn and you can always teach

Online Eric Krewson

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2005, 08:37:00 AM »
Early on in my bow building I had the bamboo split at the nocks on several BBOs. One osage bow split the limb about 6" down from the nock when I accidentally slipped the string out of one side of the nock putting all the pressure on the other side. I started adding overlays on all my bows and never had any problems since. I also started using DF-97 strings with 4 extra strands of B-50 in the loops and felt the overlays would be good insurance for my string nocks. Of equal importance is the way they enhance the appearance of a bow.

Offline the Ferret

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2005, 09:17:00 AM »
Well I've added everything up as best I could and here's what we have..THE bow most of us would build (a composite of our most popular answers)

Osage, 64" ntn, rigid 4" handle, 1 1/2" fades, full width for 1/3 of the working limb length then tapering to the tip, even length limbs, slightly rounded belly, unbacked, with a leather glued up rest and some kind of bone overlays on the tips. It would have a more or less straight profile, be sealed with true-oil,have a leather handle covering and a flemish string. String material was interestingly split evenly between dacron and a ff type material.

Not a bad design at all fellas

I'm going to have to study this 1/3 of the limb length before tapering, overlays and high performance strings.

Lots of areas for discussion here.
There is always someone that knows more than you, and someone that knows less than you, so you can always learn and you can always teach

Online Bowjunkie

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2005, 09:23:00 AM »
If I knew this was gonna be the only bow I could use for the next 5 years, I'd be really ticked off  :)

Seriously, I'd slightly overbuild it and keep it as simple as possible so, hopefully, nothing bad would happen to it. I'd build a bow almost exactly like I did last year to hunt with.

I would have chosen a BBO, but I've had more splinters raise on them than on selfbows.


(1) dense, straight-grained, thick-ringed osage
(2) 66" for my 28"
(3) rigid handle
(4) handle length 4"
(5) 1 1/2" flares
(6) convex taper from the flares to the nocks
(7) 1 3/8" at its widest
(8) asymetrical limbs
(9) nicely radiused/rounded belly
(10) no backing
(11) built up leather rest
(12) no overlays
(13) straight standing after break-in
(14) Fullerplast catalyzed varnish
(15) skived deer leather handle and arrow plate
(16) 15 strand, 3 bundle B-50 flemish string

Where's the draw weight question? It's got a bearing on some of our other design characterisitcs, no?

I'd make it about 65# @ 28".


 

Offline the Ferret

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2005, 09:34:00 AM »
Bowjunkie I don't think weight has any bearing on it from a design standpoint, most of the answers were pretty much in line and I know guys shoot from 45-70 pounds on here and still chose within the parameters listed above and below

out of 21 bow designs (regardless of draw weight)...17 were between 62" & 66" in length (14 of those between 64&66), 16 were osage, 16 had rigid 4" handles 14 had fades between 1 1/2 and 2" long,17 had slightly rounded bellies,17 had no backings,17 had leather wrapped handles, 16 had even length limbs,20 used a flemish string, 12 had a straight limb profile. Pretty unanimous stuff

BTW it looks as though your design is right in line with the rest except for the asym limbs and the convex limb from fade to tip. Could you please explain how you lay out the convex limb and what you think it gains you?
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Offline John Scifres

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2005, 09:36:00 AM »
Interesting that most of us made a Torges bow for the most part.  Where's Hamm and Baker?  We all can't be osage cultists.  We need some of them TBB groupies  :)

I was at Lowes yesterday and tried to find a red oak that would make a bow.  No dice this time but I'm gonna give it a shot every time I'm there.

Pig, I like the straight taper too but only on really long, skinny bows like the one I'm eventually gonna send you  :)
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Offline DCM

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2005, 09:38:00 AM »
Ok Lennie, I'll play.

(1) material (osage, hickory, etc)
Osage

(2) ntn length
67" NTN for 29" draw.  Since Mickey is all anal about everybody being specific 65" for 28, 63" for 27".

(3) handle design (rigid, semi bend, bend)
stiff

(4) handle length
4"

(5) fade length
3" to 5" of width taper with 1" to 2" left not working.  2" for Mickey's stats.

(6) limb design (full width to mid, past mid or straight taper from fade)
taper to full width at 1/3rd limb then taper back down to 1/2" nocks

(7) limb width at fade
1 3/8" at full width for 55#

(8) Limb length (even length or asymetrical)
slight asym with lower being no more than 1" shorter

(9)Belly type (flat, slightly rounded, deep core)
slightly rounded

(10) backing (none, sinew,rawhide,snakeskin etc)
none

(11)rest type (none, glued leather, bone, floppy etc)
glued leather

(12)overlays (yes, no, material)
no

(13)profile (straight, reflex, static curve etc)
straight to 1/2" of string follow

(14)finish (tung oil, tru oil, french polish, massey, thunderbird spar urethane etc)
massey

(15)handle covering (none, leather, laced, wrapped etc)
leather like laced but overlap glued, not ribbon wrapped.

(16) string type and material (endless,flemish, dacron, FF etc)
Flemish FF 14 strand with double serving of 50# Spiderwire braided fishing strang

Offline the Ferret

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2005, 09:46:00 AM »
Thanks for playing David    :D   me anal????   :readit:    "[tunglaff]"
There is always someone that knows more than you, and someone that knows less than you, so you can always learn and you can always teach

Offline Dano

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2005, 09:46:00 AM »
I like JD's answer on tip overlays, but I also use them to give a more rounded profile.
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Offline tom sawyer

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2005, 10:14:00 AM »
David, clarify on your fades.  You are going from thick/skinny to wide/thin over 3 to 5", and getting it to bend back into this taper?  Don't you run the risk of a crack where the fibers end in the fade?  I had a crack on my fade once, where it was bending into the width-tapered area.  Now I just sneak it up and leave it within 1 or 2" of the taper.
Lennie aka "Tom Thumbs"
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Offline Torsten

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Re: Designing the ultimate wooden bow......
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2005, 10:27:00 AM »
I am impressed about your enthusiasm.

I have some GOOD juniper staves in my garage. I need to admit that I am missing an added value for myself gained to make someting definitely new and unseen compared to my own recurve weapons here. After more than 50000 years our bows are really much what they have ever been. Space age materials might make a difference, a little....

Keep your old ideals and have happy hunting

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