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Author Topic: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!  (Read 2410 times)

Offline Aaron Proffitt 2

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2008, 04:08:00 PM »
Dennis Kamstra had a great article in TBM awhile back about this very topic.

Offline Haldir

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2008, 05:34:00 PM »
There's one thing that I have come to realize with regard to this topic...a person that holds at anchor can *usually* speed up their shot, if need be, with little ill effect... however, the opposite cannot be said of the "snapshooter" ...*usually*...    ;)  

BTW Chris:  Well spoken.  Hope you can make it down to another shoot in Crossville.

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2008, 05:47:00 PM »
Quote
At 3D events the long holders with recurves tend to win, but out hunting they do well out of tree stands at standing deer. Much the same as compound shooters do. For us ground hunters, we need a more flexible form to give the most options for the wider variety of shots we take.
Interesting comment. I hunt primarily from the ground and can't recall my shooting style costing me a shot at any given point.  What type of shots do you feel would be an issue?

Good to see you, Colby....I'm going to try and get back that way sometime in the near future.  Are you going to make it up to Clarksville to shoot the Tennessee Classic next month?
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Offline SHOOTO8S

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2008, 09:17:00 PM »
Man this ones lasted a while huh?

As far as I'm concerned a shooter is in control or he isn't... if he HAS to shoot fast, they are other issues in play and the downside will soon come to the surface...if a touch and release shooter is in control,he's pulling through the shot and thats always a good thing!
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Offline laddy

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2008, 09:27:00 PM »
In reference to C wilson's question. I find that hunting small game holding time is a luxury that does not usually help with my accuracy.  Birds are just plain fast and with rabbits I rarely get that easy stand up straight chance, seems I always need to shoot under or around something.  For deer, that second shot situation, like when I took a careful aim at a doe and hit high and right at 20 yards.  The arrow went through and stuck in a tree, the second hit was 45 on the move and up a steep slope with no time to hold.  I do believe there is an advantage with standing targets to be able to tighten up at anchor,  but that is as far as the holding time is any help to me.  i either spread draw or swing draw, paying very close attention to the last few inches of draw.  I also shoot with  much more bend in my bow arm than your photo demonstrates.  I changed per John Schulz's advise out of frustration with trying to blend Olympic form with hunting form, for me it is one or the other and I choose hunting.

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2008, 10:38:00 PM »
Now we have clarification.  It doesn't work well for YOU and your hunting situations.  Your original comment was pretty much a blanket statement that doesn't apply to many.  You'd be surprised how well I do on squirrels.    :)
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Online Terry Green

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2008, 12:06:00 PM »
The old timers that coined the phrase 'snap shooting' or 'snap shooter' that I personaly know/knew, was just phrase to describe a style of shooting.....someone who shot fast without holding, or never stopped pulling. Hill and Pearson were both great shooters, and refered to in those days as snap shooters....seems Fred Bear called himself a snap shooter as well.

As of late, others have miss used that phrase and have put a negative spin on it, mostly by those that don't understand what snap shooting is as deemed by our forefathers......and referring to snap shooting as out of control shooting and leading to target panic. I just wish the term snap shooter would quit being miss used.

Target panic is a mental issue, and causes uncontrollable releases....short drawing is also a mental issue, as the one shooting knows they are suppose to come to anchor.

Snap shooting is a style of 'releasing' or shooting, ...target panic, or out of control shooting is a condition.
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Offline Steertalker

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2008, 03:50:00 PM »
I think Rod said it as succinctly as can be said   ;)  

And even though we all have own cadence or rhythm a shooter in control can speed it up or slow it down a little or just not at all and let the string down.

Brett
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Offline BobW

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2008, 04:23:00 PM »
I will start by saying I am a complete rookie - so please provide constructive criticism is necessary.

Interesting to see this post as I am in the middle of reading Instinctive Shooting (Vol. I done, in the middle of Vol. II). G. Fred even comments that anchor is not critical if the same linear line is used in the draw that would reach anchor.  As I read/understand it, it is all a matter of the same mechanics/form being used, and not anchor that is the essential element.  As for the phrase "settling in to the shot", that seems as if the push pull is not constant, and thus a problem if one is doing that.  I believe "snap shooting" is the deviation from  proper form, and nothing else.  It may be rapid or not.

Thoughts?
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Online Terry Green

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2008, 04:33:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steertalker:
I think Rod said it as succinctly as can be said    ;)  

And even though we all have own cadence or rhythm a shooter in control can speed it up or slow it down a little or just not at all and let the string down.

Brett
Yep,....I'm a snap shooter, and snap shoot most times on game, but I have held on game as well, and letting down is very common on hogs, sometime as many as 8 times before I got a shot....if I got one.
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Offline deermaster1

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2008, 05:13:00 PM »
terry, can you think of a scenario where drawing and holding would be preferable over snap shooting? i have not killed a whole lot of deer or hogs, but of the 6 deer i have killed, all could have been easily snapshot.  thanks for taking the time to post.
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Offline Aaron Proffitt

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2008, 05:25:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by deermaster1:
terry, can you think of a scenario where drawing and holding would be preferable over snap shooting? i have not killed a whole lot of deer or hogs, but of the 6 deer i have killed, all could have been easily snapshot.  thanks for taking the time to post.
Off hand,I can't.The reason I say that is a scenario that involves maintaining anchor,may last a long time.To long for me.But,I have been at a 1/4 or even 1/2 draw for awhile.
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Online Terry Green

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2008, 08:21:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by deermaster1:
terry, can you think of a scenario where drawing and holding would be preferable over snap shooting? i have not killed a whole lot of deer or hogs, but of the 6 deer i have killed, all could have been easily snapshot.  thanks for taking the time to post.
Absolutely, if your make up and mentality are better suited for holding, then that's what you need to do.

Some are more suited to calculate the trajectory to the moon, and others are better suited to drive the rocket. You just gotta figure out which guy you are.
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"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

' An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to execution' - Me

Offline adirondack46r

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2008, 05:20:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steertalker:
The speed at which one chooses to shoot is a personal thing.  Some need more time to set things up; others don't.  What's important is being in control of your shot.  It's being able to choose to shoot or not shoot when all the parts of your shot are arranged and brought to order at anchor.  Typically what snap shooting does is to trigger a release of the string....which is not good.  It's counterpart in the firearms world is called flinching.

Brett
I am with Brett on this one. I recently posted this...


  posted March 18, 2008 08:48 AM                      
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"I have been shooting about 3 years now and until 6 months ago I always released as soon as (and often before) I hit my anchor point. And I was shooting pretty good.

After posting a video of my form and receiving alot of good feedback, I decided to "retool" my form, drawing to achor and spending a second or two or three acquiring my target and then releasing. Let me tell you, things got MUCH worse than I thought possible and I was very tempted to go back to my previous style. But I stuck with it. Several months into the process, something changed.

Suddenly, the bow that I used to think was a bit heavy for me was fully under my control. I became much more aware of my anchor point, back tension and alignment. Once or twice each shooting session I was shooting 3" groups at 20 yards, which was unheard for me previously. Now I am shooting better than I ever have."

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... and it continues to improve.

Here's something to try. Get yourself a 30# bow. Take 10 - 20 shots shooting without holding, just get to anchor and let 'er fly. Now take that same bow and shoot 10 - 20 arrows while taking the time to hold and acquire your target before releasing. This is what convinced me that I needed to be holding longer. On average my groups were considerably smaller when holding 3-5 seconds.

For me, it was all about control and form. Some can do that without holding, but my guess is they are in the minority.

This of course is my experience and completely unencumbered by scientific evidence. ;-)

Offline Steertalker

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2008, 05:36:00 PM »
Quote
....I decided to "retool" my form, drawing to achor and spending a second or two or three acquiring my target and then releasing.
It's all about programming the "coconut computer" between the ears.  Anyone can learn to do it with the
training.

Congratulations adirondack46r on sticking it out and seeing things through!  All it takes is a little determination.

Brett
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Offline Diamond Paul

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2008, 05:46:00 PM »
Kind of like what Howard Hill said about instinctive shooters: "I've seen a bunch of them, but never seen a good one."  I've seen a bunch of snapshooters, but never a good one.  I have seen some excellent shooters who shot fast, though. . .
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Online Terry Green

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2008, 06:07:00 PM »
HH made that 'instinctive' comment early in his career when he was a target archer....and when he started hunting, and hunting heavy, he also stated that he shot many a animals instinctively, and didn't even remember drawing the bow.  

Ya'll can continue to miss use the term snap shooter if you like, but I'm going to keep on trying to correct it.            :D        

Don't believe me?...ask Ron LaClair for starters.

I guess Fred Bear didn't know what he was talking about either.

Or the guy that was ranked 3rd in the nation back in the day(that held on target)referring to HH as a snap shooter.

Sorry, its just a pet peev of mine that some of the greats referred to each other as snap shooters, and it wasn't a negative term, nor were they out of control...they were describing great shooters and successful hunters.  Like in my earlier post, somehow folks have twisted the term to mean out of control or target panic, or bad form...and that's not the correct meaning of the word according to our fore fathers.
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Offline Diamond Paul

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2008, 06:44:00 PM »
Sorry, Terry, I was just making a point that there are excellent shooters who shoot fast; I don't like the term "snap-shooter," because it implies lack of control.  Fred Bear even stated that he had a terrible problem with not reaching anchor, and had to really concentrate to get there.  There are many people who have excellent mechanics and simply apply them quickly, but to me, snapshooters do not. I also think that many people think they can just forget mechanics the moment they pick up a recurve; even with my shooting background, I felt that way for a while, because many "great traditional shooters" encourage people to just let it all hang out and have fun, so to speak.  I now agree with the "have fun" part, but don't shoot like that anymore.  JMHO, Paul.  P.S.- Not trying to denigrate instinctive shooters, either, as I am one of them.
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Online Terry Green

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2008, 08:08:00 PM »
Diamond, I hear ya, and I can asure ya, I aint one of them that say 'let it all hang out'.

BTW...this being a Trad Bowhunting forum....our definition of Traditional is bowhunting before wheels....and from what all I've read and been told, and understand, the term snap shooter did not have a negative meaning back then....so that's why I'm holding to 'back in the day'.  Hope that makes sense.
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"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

' An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to execution' - Me

Online Ron LaClair

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Re: no need to hold!! snapshoot away!
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2008, 08:44:00 PM »
I've been shooting a bow since I was a squirt... but I didn't really start to learn about form and style until I started shooting competition 49 years ago. While we never "stop" learning there are some things that become apparent after 50 years of study. One thing I do know for sure is there is no absolute style when it comes to shooting a bow.

When someone says you have to shoot this way or that way because all the top shots shoot that way, I say baloney. Some of the best shooters I've been privileged to know shot with what some would call an "unorthodox" style. Jim Pickering used a "Dead" release and high anchor when he competed in some of the top tournaments of the day in the 1960's. Everyone else in the Country shot with what was call "Power Archery" Jim whipped them all. He was a National Champion and a PAA Champion using a style that everyone said was "wrong". Jim Caspers another Archery Champion shot with a high elbow on his drawing arm. He actually pumped his arm up and down after he was at full draw, he said it helped him build up back tension.

As for the term "Snap shooter", I've been hearing it for 50 years and it was probably used before that. It has "always" been used to refer to someone that shot in one fluid motion, and whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.

I was privileged to talk to Fred Bear many times over the years and I remember him calling himself a "snap shooter". He said, "I'm a snap shooter,..I concentrate from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet". He said he couldn't shoot a compound because the let off interfered with the rhythm of his shooting style and broke his concentration.

"Good snap shooters"?...I've seen a lot of them. In the early years of the GLLI (Great Lakes Longbow Invitational) when scores were kept , we had the best shooters in the Country shooting for the honor of top dog. The shooters that won that shoot more often than not were what I call "Snap shooters" Very controlled, very meticulous, very accurate shooters whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.

Someone that "does not" come to full draw or touch their anchor before they release have what's called "target panic or what use to be called "IT". They are NOT...repeat NOT, snap shooters.

I think the problem is like what Terry said people today are "mis using" the term "snap shooter".  Snap shooting is definitely not an inferior style of shooting a bow, however it must be realized that not everyone can master the snap shooting style. Those that can't may end up with target panic and be called snap shooters but in reality they are  not. Maybe we should come up with another term to describe these failed snap shooters...."short snappers"?..."Half snappers"?
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