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Author Topic: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?  (Read 2055 times)

Offline Dave Rice

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Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« on: December 12, 2018, 05:58:22 PM »
And, would more consistent, fact-based regulations be valuable for our sport? Promote hunting across state boundaries for more people? Simplify choosing your next bow?

We've all seen many, many threads on is XX# draw weight enough for (deer, elk, bear,...). Always the caveat of State regs crops up. State regulations vary quite a bit. I'm in Washington state where a minimum hunting bow weight is 40# @ 28". Our southern neighbors in OR can hunt deer with a 40# bow and elk with a 50# bow (at their draw length). Seems simple. But with my 29.5" draw length that means I can hunt deer with a ~36.5#@28" bow in Oregon (~40# @ 29.5"), and a 43+# @29.5" in WA. That's a pretty big difference.

Both of the regulation approaches above overlook/ignore a key fact:  draw length, not just draw weight, is a key variable in how much energy is delivered to an arrow. An arrow shot by a bow drawn 40#@30" has much more energy than one drawn to 40# at 26". In one interview I heard an olympic coach guesstimate that at a given draw weight (40#), an extra inch of draw is worth an additional 8-10# of bow weight, and that is one reason why the vast majority of successful olympic archers have long draw lengths:  they can shoot lighter bows and maintain arrow performance.

We all know that shot placement is king, and arrow flight, arrow weight, FOC, broadhead choice, etc. are all very important too, and get more important as the force delivered to the arrow approaches some (unknown) minimum.

What are examples of the best State equipment regulations? And, is there a very simple formula that would be more effective at assessing equipment capabilities that could be adopted broadly?

p.s. probably should have waited until after hunting season for this type of post!

Offline Don Armstrong

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2018, 06:50:33 PM »
Jmho but l think, with the anti hunting movement today, you could probably get hunting with a bow outlawed with enough controversy about what it takes to kill an animal. Sometimes, again jmho, don't rock the boat or it may turn over. Don

Online Pine

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2018, 07:22:07 PM »
If your going to dream, dream big.  :saywhat:
Take time to enjoy a nice sit in the woods and just listen...…
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Offline Dave Rice

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2018, 07:39:07 PM »
Jmho but l think, with the anti hunting movement today, you could probably get hunting with a bow outlawed with enough controversy about what it takes to kill an animal. Sometimes, again jmho, don't rock the boat or it may turn over. Don

Yep, that's one possible interpretation. Another is that is creates a more fact-based system and may be viewed as a group (archery hunters) being thoughtful and responsible. Who knows in today's world. I'll admit I'm not good at avoidance as a strategy, although it may be a good choice.

Of course, in most cases lethality is more about the hunter and the choices they make in preparation and in the field than about marginal changes in a bow. But bows, arrows, broadheads we can measure.


Offline Bowwild

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2018, 07:54:47 PM »
It is cliche but, less is more when it comes to regulating such things. I also detest laws that are unenforceable without extreme measures and intrusion in our personal liberties.

I have been against complex, big brother equipment regulations for most of my adult life. I've helped eliminate some. Most of the time such regulations fit the belief/ethic/choices of a small group of self-described elitists.

Hunters want to be successful and they will figure out what works for them and what doesn't.

Some call such regulations "educational" and I understand that point of view. But, if one wants education then call it that.

Sorry, but this has long been a hot button for me.

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Offline Don Armstrong

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2018, 08:02:10 PM »
I applaud your intentions and, in this day and time, your optimism for your fellow man. Unfortunately I'm a hopeless pessimist. No matter what the regulations are, a gut shot deer is really bad, shot with a 30 pound bow or an 80 pound bow. Don

Online McDave

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2018, 08:02:48 PM »
Politically, I think what you’re going to find is that each state is going to guard its own hunting regulations, partially as a matter of states’ rights, partly because of differences in the hunting conditions in each state.  To take one example, feeders might make sense in one state that is trying to reduce the population of a particular game animal, while it might be considered a mortal sin in another state.

I used to be a CPA, and sympathized with the bewildering sales tax regulations, not just state by state, but county by county.  The difference in sales tax rates across the country is the least of the problems; different rates can easily be programmed into a computer.  But each county may also have different rules as to what is taxable and what is not, which is a much more difficult problem to solve. States and in some cases counties, are not willing to give up their prerogatives in this matter, which I’m sure is a much less emotionally charged issue than hunting regs.
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Online Bowguy67

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2018, 08:26:36 PM »
At least around here the minimum draw weight is 35lbs for deer n bear. Now that’s all bows. I’m aware of no states that are trad specific. This is by no means any disrespect to any CO but lots are real young. Even older ones may never have shot a stykbow. Trying to explain it’s legal at your draw length could be challenging at best. How would you prove you don’t short draw when excited??
In the hunter ed classes we teach it’s problematic and I understand this.

Online Orion

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2018, 09:41:55 PM »
Though most states have minimum bow weight requirements, they don't seem to be enforced.  They seem more guidance than anything else. I don't believe I've ever read a post indicating that a trad hunter's bow was ever checked to determine if it met a state's minimum. Perhaps now some examples will surface.

Regardless, there are so many variables in bow/arrow performance (draw weight, draw length, arrow weight, bow design, broadhead design and sharpness, etc) that it would be about impossible to come up with a one size fits all regulation.

I suppose it's possible to come up with a minimum kinetic energy or momentum figure, but who understands those measures or how to derive or test for them.  IMO, just isn't needed.

Offline Gooserbat

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2018, 01:52:14 AM »
I think your overcomplicating it. 
"Four fletch white feathers and 600 grains is a beautiful thing."

Offline toddster

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2018, 07:51:31 AM »
Personally, I like to have the minimum stated by the State, which they deem "ethical" for the harvest of the game hunted.  I recall in my home state not to long ago, had to be minimum of 40#, no stone point broadheads, and could not use crossbows (though the latter I strongly agree with unless disabled).  I don't need someone to tell me how to hunt ethically, I do that for me and the animal.  One of the big things I see however, is that more and more firearm hunters are getting their own time in the woods, which is limiting bow hunters, which is B.S. to me.

Online reddogge

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2018, 08:24:08 AM »
A state must put something in the regs. on draw weight of bows and the simplest method is to pick a number. If I were you I'd have that number written on the bow so the DNR can read it. I think that's as sophisticated they are when it comes down to recurves and longbows. If you think they can understand and calculate draw weight formulas I think you are sadly mistaken.
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Online old_goat2

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2018, 11:43:15 AM »
I don't think I want to rock that boat, what I would appreciate is what I know Oklahoma has and maybe some other states that I don't know about, and that's primitive hunting areas (like State Wildlife Areas) and or whole units! I'd put in for that draw!
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Offline David Mitchell

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2018, 12:06:20 PM »
I believe in local government as much as possible so prefer to keep it to my state to set regs, and as little regulation as possible.  So I would be a "no" on further regulations.
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Offline Sam McMichael

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2018, 01:03:57 PM »
I am pretty much in line with David Mitchell on this.
Sam

Offline hvyhitter

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2018, 04:16:05 PM »
Too many non-hunters are being involved in writing and updating DNR rules, regs and laws. This usually makes for a lot of over complication. Not sure that any universial regs or laws would be in our best interest. What if they just said min arrow speed 250 fps. Compounds and crossbows no problem, tradbows would be illegal...………
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Online BAK

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2018, 05:27:11 PM »
Pointless exercise in futility as nothing to stop someone from short drawing at any given point in time.
"May your blood trails be short and your drags all down hill."

Online OkKeith

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2018, 06:36:08 PM »
LONG POST WARNING!!!

I'm certainly no physicist ... but with equal arrow weight the energy produced with 40# at 28 inches is the same as 40# at 31 inches. A pound of lead and a pound of feathers weighs the same. I'm sure there is some small variability due to the cast of the bow, limb length and other such that affect arrow speed.

Here is how the Oklahoma Regulations read:

Archery
This includes Deer Archery, Elk Archery, Antelope Archery & Bear Archery seasons.
• Bow: Any compound bow of 30 pounds or more draw weight; any recurve, longbow or self-bow of 40 pounds or more draw weight. Hand-held releases are legal. Devices that permit a bow to be held mechanically at full
or partial draw are allowed.

The first thing an Oklahoma Game Warden will look at on a "production" bow is the markings that say what the poundage of the bow is. If it reads 40# or more... you are back to hunting. If it is less you will have some explaining to do. The same with a homemade bow. There are provisions in the regs for selfbows. They may be generous and have a scale with them to measure the draw weight of your bow at your draw length, maybe not. If you have a scale with you, that might work. If you decide to be difficult the Warden may just decide to write the ticket. "Sign here, press hard, fifth copy is yours, court date is on the back." Then you have to fool with explaining to a judge about draw weights at your draw length and such. You might win but I doubt that would make for a good day in the field.

I'm not saying that anyone here on TradGang is this way... but I just don't understand the almost automatic resistance some folks have to regulations. We didn't have any regulations in the early part of the century and nearly hunted every significant game animal into extinction. I don't think people were less ethical then as opposed to now. I'm sure societal morays were different. Regulations are put in place as a fundamental bottom line for conduct. Ninety-eight percent of us operate above that bottom line but some folks get offended when a bottom line is established to keep that two percent in line. A lot of folks (not necessarily here mind you) carp about a regulation and say... "That's a needless/obtrusive/over bearing (pick your adjective de jour) rule. I would NEVER do that. It offends me to have that regulation!" What's offensive? If you wouldn't ever do it what difference does the rule make? Obviously someone has done it or there wouldn't be a regulation against it. Its been my experience in nearly thirty years of working in Natural Resource Management (and yes, some time spent in a Law Enforcement capacity) that folks in these agencies have a lot more to do than sit around and recreationally invent laws and regulations.

With the right conditions and opportunity you could probably kill a deer with a fifteen pound bow. Dead is dead... but the margin for a bad situation is much wider at fifteen pounds than it is at forty pounds. Might be even less at sixty pounds but forty is the compromise. I did a quick scan of the states in my region and most have similar poundage requirements. Forty to forty-five pounds for deer sized game animals seems pretty consistent.

Yes, I have had my bow checked in the field by a Game Warden. I have checked bows during field contacts myself. The WORST questions I got were the "Yeah, but what if I... (whatever)". My follow up was always, "Would you ever do that?" and almost every time their answer was, "Well... no." If the Regs say carry a bow of at least 40# draw weight, you are gonna waste a lot of hunting time if you can't show that it is pretty quick.

That's more than two cents worth... closer to a buck-fifty!

Stay warm,

OkKeith
In a moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing.
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Offline bowzonly

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2018, 11:09:22 AM »
“Bow hunting“ and I put it in quotes because in New Jersey that includes X guns has gotten so out of control that half of the whitetails harvested each year are taken during archery season Our wildlife management  areas are so small and get so much pressure during archery season that the deer are pushed out to be killed on the roads or into neighborhoods were  most of the hunting is done these days I only have access to public land and I am so frustrated that I will probably not even buy a license  next year the only way I would reconsider would be if they had special regulation areas or special areas Where you needed to draw a permit but I understand that that is a pipe dream

Online The Vanilla Gorilla

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Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2018, 12:26:04 PM »
I'm just curious.  Has anyone ever had a game warden ask to put your bow on a scale to actually see if the poundage that's hand written with a Sharpie by Joe Blow Traditional Bows actually matches what is on a bow scale? 

I myself have not.

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