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Author Topic: Who's used WW on moose?  (Read 1939 times)

Offline bob@helleknife.com

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2005, 07:07:00 PM »
FWIW...

I have taken 3 elk with 3 blade heads, 2WW and 1 Snuffer.

The two WW's ended up sticking in the dirt on the exit side and the Snuffer picked up the off-side shoulder.  It made an amazing amount of noise!

2018s about 560 grains, 60 lb recurve with B-50 string.

I do strongly recommend knocking back the tips on the WWs.

I am not sure how that translates into a moose hunt but good luck!

Bob
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Offline Jeff Holchin

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2005, 07:16:00 PM »
John, I bought them from Todd Breeding at Stick and Feathers Arrowsmithing.  PM me for the contact info if interested.  It took a little adjusting for the slower flight and bigger arc, but I am a big fan of momentum...
"He has also made me as a select arrow, He has hidden me in His quiver." - Isaiah 49:2

Offline AkDan

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2005, 10:16:00 PM »
Vance,

That would definatly be interesting.  Let me know how it goes.  Weather here was snowing and blowing also.  Warmed up also roads are pure ice......LOOOOOVELY.

I would like to add something on moose here as far as trailing and such.  THere is a TON of blood in a moose usually leaving a pretty good blood trail regardless.  They are also on the average easier to bring down then most critters which I find fairly ironic.  A double lung shot and you'll be lucky to see one go much farther then 50 to 75 yards.  This is no end all here as all situations are different as Terry has stated, however it seems to be the norm.  I like you would like 2 holes for the obvious reason, blood trails.  I don't make note of this to take the easy way out by any means, but it is information that might be able to be used somewhere down the road for someone, who knows.  You still need to tweak your setup to as perfect as you can get and then do your job with arrow placement...after that, once the arrows in the air there's no going back!

Terry,

Actually after watching a grizzly get shot here this past couple of years ago nothing is going to suprise me to much anymore.  Using a quality video setup you could literally see frame by frame (I believe it was 3 or 4 shots), the arrow deflecting after impact and changing directions.  It definatly raise's an eyebrow for certain in all aspects but after seeing that I wouldn't be to suprised anymore.  Sure makes for an interesting tracking job if you were to see that BEFORE you went looking for a "dead" grizzly   ;)  .  It also raises some eyebrows in the equipment selection department as you've stated.  Doing everything right and still getting a "failure".  That grizzly did die of that arrows wounds and was recoved after an average blood trail but think of how things could have been, say with a slightly less tuned bow or duller broadheads...etc etc etc.  

Mike Mitten about summed up my thoughts on this head personally...."The arrow passed between the ribs on entry (it may have deflected off a rib) and lodged dead center to the exit rib, which it did not penetrate."

I don't know beyond a reasonable doubt but it sure leaves me wondering what would have happened should one hit the rib going in.  I know my 2 blade eskimo's will do the job, I am just not so certain a WW is up to it.

Offline AkDan

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2005, 10:26:00 PM »
John,

Another option for heavy arrows is those barrel tapered ash shafts I was shooting.  Got turned over to cedar awhile back.  Working on footing them to add weight, go figure, kind of wished I would have never changed to begin with.  I still have a few of those old arrows, next time we hook up remind me and I'll bring a couple.  They were in the high high 600's with 125's, forgot exact weights as it's been quite ahwile.

Offline Tuttu

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2005, 11:05:00 PM »
I live in the Bush up north.  
I hit a rib on the far side of the griz.  The arrow didn't hit a rib on the moose.
I forgot to mention, last year, I harvested 2 caribou and a mature bull moose with the same snuffer head.  I got a complete pass through on one caribou, and 20 inches of penetration on the moose.  I retired that broadhead on the third animal. My set up was 60@28 and a 625 grain arrow.
Chuck

Offline J from Denmark

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2005, 05:03:00 AM »
AKDan
I figured they used alu arrows, most likely pretty fat ones !

WW´s and snuffers are in NO way similar penetrating heads and muzzys are not even close to ww´s

I bet my bow that a WW will penetrate as good or better then a regular wide 2-blade head !!

And dont forget, arrow thickness is a MAJOR penetration factor !

I my opinion theese are facts, but ofcourse I can only state them as my opinion   :readit:    :wavey:  

Jacob

Offline robk

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2005, 05:25:00 AM »
i am thinking of trying the razorcaps since there is no 125 grain wensel in the screw in models and they have them in the razorcaps. does anyone have any input on the razorcaps? i am pretty new to traditional and i want to get the best set up for my ben pearson cougar in 45lbs@28.5" draw. i have been shooting some glueons for my wood arrows in the 2 blade and 4 blade magnus but i am more curious as to what i want to shoot for my carbons or aluminums. any help would be greatly appreciated. i am enjoying my success with my shooting my recurve out to 20 to 25 yards and my groups are closing and working much better the more i shoot.
thanks for any help
rob k
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Offline J from Denmark

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2005, 08:57:00 AM »
Rob, razorcaps is a great broadhead BUT it is way closer to the snuffer in profile then to the WW.
Go with skinny carbons, steel adapter and a ww and your arrows will zip right through them.

Good luck

Offline Vance in AK.

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2005, 02:44:00 PM »
Thanks all.
I really appreciate al the observations & comments.  If I do get a chance to test any on recently roadkilled moose before we butcher them I will let you in on the results. Unfortunately, the calls for roadkills usually come during the dark hours & often you are standing beside the road for all to see so I'm not sure what kind of image that might present to passers by ;-)
Like Dan, I have no question of the WW's performance on soft tissue, but a rib on the way in....
By the way, I'm playing with Grizzly Sticks for shafts, & expect a total arrow weight of close to 650gr.
We'll see how I'm feeling about it next fall.  I think I will try them for black bear this spring.
Anymore input anyone?

By the Dan, if you check this thread again, I changed email addresses.  Haven't used the old one much lately, & found your note there.  Still interested in the river?
New email,
kenaibible@alaska.com
Jesus said "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."
John 15:4&5

Offline AkDan

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2005, 10:12:00 PM »
Hey know, that aint fair, I am prone to sum-timers disease    :D   .  You talking about the Kenai?  Drop me a line, I am back into the bump and grind for winter.  Goofy weekends though, with tuesday and wensdays off.  

I also bought these heads for black bears, havent had much of a chance to use them.  They seem to be my nemosis, not to mention I could never get them as sharp as I wanted so I fall back on the tried and true eskimo's.  Still have a dozen or so, might have to rethink the bear deal and the WW's.  Hopefully I can get out on the penninsula for brown bears this spring.  Btw, dont forget the winter draw is on.

Offline ardybe

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2005, 05:21:00 PM »
AKDan, a buddy of mine, living in Fairbanks now, showed me a video like the one you discribed.  On his video it was the weight of the arrow that caused the arrow to deflect into the bears spine.  If someone were to go after larger game, would you recommend a 2 or 3 blade BH?

Thanks
Ron

Offline AkDan

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2005, 10:48:00 PM »
Ron,

Sounds like ya know Woody.  

Me personally I prefer penetration so I prefer 2 blades.  Havent had an issue with blood trails OR penetration

Offline AkDan

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2005, 03:01:00 AM »
Sparta,

Yup your right, for the most part.  But that little voice in the back of my head that bothers me on a daily basis  :D  keeps saying what happens when you center the rib on an otherwise perfect shot (placement) happens.  My problem here is when things go right (for a change eh), and things have a much higher degree of failing potential.  Hows that for a mouthfull...I can hear it now, my english teach is still cussing me out hehe.

You'll almost NEVER get through the shoulder enough to put the animal down.  One bull we found had 2 other arrows embedded in, one a recent wound from that fall, another from the fall before.  Pretty amazing what an animal can live through.

Offline deerfly

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2005, 09:40:00 AM »
Hmmm, intersting thread. No personal experience with WW or killing a moose for that matter, but after handling some hide and leg bone parts in Scotty's yard and then squatting about 15yds from a 1200-1300lb cow last Sept outside of Fairbanks a few days later, I would tend to agree with Dan's tendancy to err on the side of caution standpoint. These AK moose are some very big animals, clothed in a thick hide with some serious bones holding it all together, nothing even remotely close to my experience with whitetails or even large hogs.

I wouldn't go as far to say to not use WW on these animals, but I would seriously consider trying some penetration tests of my own with at minimum, a side of beef ribs and see how they handle hitting large rib bones. Although unless you're getting a  slab from 1000+lb pound steer, you're probably not getting a true comparison. But you could at least get some idea how the head will hold up to hitting large rib bones. - eric

Offline ardybe

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2005, 09:41:00 AM »
Yeah, Dan, Woody was the one that got me started on this whole instintive shooting thing.  He introducted me to Trad Gang about 2 years ago and it's been a ball ever since!

Online Terry Green

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2005, 11:05:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AkDan:
Sparta,

  But that little voice in the back of my head that bothers me on a daily basis   :D   keeps saying what happens when you center the rib on an otherwise perfect shot (placement) happens.  
Yeah..and those same voices are still telling me that my two blade failed under those same exact circumstances.   :o
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Offline Vance in AK.

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2005, 11:32:00 AM »
Hmmmmm.....   If there is one thing I can say for certain that I got from this thread, it's that when it comes to broadheads, nothing is for certain!

I agree with Sparta, as far as arrow placement & tuning, & I'll go one further & throw in total arrow weight.
But like Dan, I have that nagging voice that says a rib is right there even on a perfect shot.
And then Terry comes along & says "yeah, that rib is what messed up my 2 blade!".
I'M SO CONFUSED!!!!!!!!
But thank you all for your input.

I think I'll pick some WWs up, & try them on my Grizzly Sticks on a road kill or two if I get a chance, try & punch a rib going in, & see what happens.  I'll probably try them for spring black bear too.  By next fall I should have an idea one way or another for moose.  But, for right now, I don't think I'll toss my Ace 2 blades quite yet ;-)
Jesus said "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."
John 15:4&5

Offline deerfly

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2005, 12:24:00 PM »
well there ya go, a 1/2 dz shots or so on a road kill moose outta' help ya' sort things out a bit. Not something we can do down around these parts.  :)

Offline DarkeGreen

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2005, 01:07:00 PM »
Don't have much to add, but I did want to say that I used Muzzys for years when I was shooting a compound. I selected them based on how tough they are. My experiances from using them on deer are that they shouldn't be selected if maximum penetration is your goal.

Also,one comment on ofside ribs being hit and penetration. This same issue has been around for years in the firearms world, not so much bows and arrows. Mostly with bows, either no one cared, or though it not to be an issue because arrows cut rather than impart energy. Anyhow, For defense work it was found the human skin expanded and stretched to the point it was equal to 6" to 8" of penetration in organ tissue. When studing the effects of muzzleloader projectiles in deer I found deer hide much more resilant and equal to as much as 18" of penetration in deer organ tissue. This effect would likely only be noticed in archery if the broadhead tip were bent to the point it was blunt or you hit an off side rib there by pushing it into the skin. It not the ribs you are concern with. I can see how someone would believe this though. Again hundgun studies show the slower a projectile moves the more likely it is to be deflected on rounded or angled surfaces. Ribs are pretty brittle in the overal penetration picture. That is way you often see big chunks of ribs missing on the on side rather than a cut like is found in the spine.

Online Terry Green

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Re: Who's used WW on moose?
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2005, 03:29:00 PM »
Here's a thought...I don't think the moose rib knows the difference between a 2 blade tip or a WW tip when centered.....but I bet it knows the difference in a 500 grain arrow and an 800 grain arrow when both are running at a respective speed.
If I was concerned about dead centering a moose rib just perfect, I'd be more concerned with the total weight of my arrow.

Just curious AKDan....just what are you expecting that 2 blade tip to do to that centered rib that the WW tip won't do?

Now I do understand the use of narrow 2 blades on really big ribs like cape buff, cause they are round and staggered and ya just gotta bounce off one or two to slide into the goody box.  You aren't as likely to bust them.

I also didn't know that American Buffs had flat spots on them till I seen mine at the processor....and in seeing that, I might have opted for a heavier shaft than I used...but not sure just how you deal with a one inch flat spot turned at a 45% angle...any ideas guys?

Great thread BTW.
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