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Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Dave Rice on December 12, 2018, 05:58:22 PM

Title: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Dave Rice on December 12, 2018, 05:58:22 PM
And, would more consistent, fact-based regulations be valuable for our sport? Promote hunting across state boundaries for more people? Simplify choosing your next bow?

We've all seen many, many threads on is XX# draw weight enough for (deer, elk, bear,...). Always the caveat of State regs crops up. State regulations vary quite a bit. I'm in Washington state where a minimum hunting bow weight is 40# @ 28". Our southern neighbors in OR can hunt deer with a 40# bow and elk with a 50# bow (at their draw length). Seems simple. But with my 29.5" draw length that means I can hunt deer with a ~36.5#@28" bow in Oregon (~40# @ 29.5"), and a 43+# @29.5" in WA. That's a pretty big difference.

Both of the regulation approaches above overlook/ignore a key fact:  draw length, not just draw weight, is a key variable in how much energy is delivered to an arrow. An arrow shot by a bow drawn 40#@30" has much more energy than one drawn to 40# at 26". In one interview I heard an olympic coach guesstimate that at a given draw weight (40#), an extra inch of draw is worth an additional 8-10# of bow weight, and that is one reason why the vast majority of successful olympic archers have long draw lengths:  they can shoot lighter bows and maintain arrow performance.

We all know that shot placement is king, and arrow flight, arrow weight, FOC, broadhead choice, etc. are all very important too, and get more important as the force delivered to the arrow approaches some (unknown) minimum.

What are examples of the best State equipment regulations? And, is there a very simple formula that would be more effective at assessing equipment capabilities that could be adopted broadly?

p.s. probably should have waited until after hunting season for this type of post!
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Don Armstrong on December 12, 2018, 06:50:33 PM
Jmho but l think, with the anti hunting movement today, you could probably get hunting with a bow outlawed with enough controversy about what it takes to kill an animal. Sometimes, again jmho, don't rock the boat or it may turn over. Don
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Graps on December 12, 2018, 07:22:07 PM
If your going to dream, dream big.  :saywhat:
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Dave Rice on December 12, 2018, 07:39:07 PM
Jmho but l think, with the anti hunting movement today, you could probably get hunting with a bow outlawed with enough controversy about what it takes to kill an animal. Sometimes, again jmho, don't rock the boat or it may turn over. Don

Yep, that's one possible interpretation. Another is that is creates a more fact-based system and may be viewed as a group (archery hunters) being thoughtful and responsible. Who knows in today's world. I'll admit I'm not good at avoidance as a strategy, although it may be a good choice.

Of course, in most cases lethality is more about the hunter and the choices they make in preparation and in the field than about marginal changes in a bow. But bows, arrows, broadheads we can measure.

Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Bowwild on December 12, 2018, 07:54:47 PM
It is cliche but, less is more when it comes to regulating such things. I also detest laws that are unenforceable without extreme measures and intrusion in our personal liberties.

I have been against complex, big brother equipment regulations for most of my adult life. I've helped eliminate some. Most of the time such regulations fit the belief/ethic/choices of a small group of self-described elitists.

Hunters want to be successful and they will figure out what works for them and what doesn't.

Some call such regulations "educational" and I understand that point of view. But, if one wants education then call it that.

Sorry, but this has long been a hot button for me.

Bows, arrows, and no drugs. That's plenty of direction for me.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Don Armstrong on December 12, 2018, 08:02:10 PM
I applaud your intentions and, in this day and time, your optimism for your fellow man. Unfortunately I'm a hopeless pessimist. No matter what the regulations are, a gut shot deer is really bad, shot with a 30 pound bow or an 80 pound bow. Don
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: McDave on December 12, 2018, 08:02:48 PM
Politically, I think what you’re going to find is that each state is going to guard its own hunting regulations, partially as a matter of states’ rights, partly because of differences in the hunting conditions in each state.  To take one example, feeders might make sense in one state that is trying to reduce the population of a particular game animal, while it might be considered a mortal sin in another state.

I used to be a CPA, and sympathized with the bewildering sales tax regulations, not just state by state, but county by county.  The difference in sales tax rates across the country is the least of the problems; different rates can easily be programmed into a computer.  But each county may also have different rules as to what is taxable and what is not, which is a much more difficult problem to solve. States and in some cases counties, are not willing to give up their prerogatives in this matter, which I’m sure is a much less emotionally charged issue than hunting regs.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Bowguy67 on December 12, 2018, 08:26:36 PM
At least around here the minimum draw weight is 35lbs for deer n bear. Now that’s all bows. I’m aware of no states that are trad specific. This is by no means any disrespect to any CO but lots are real young. Even older ones may never have shot a stykbow. Trying to explain it’s legal at your draw length could be challenging at best. How would you prove you don’t short draw when excited??
In the hunter ed classes we teach it’s problematic and I understand this.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Orion on December 12, 2018, 09:41:55 PM
Though most states have minimum bow weight requirements, they don't seem to be enforced.  They seem more guidance than anything else. I don't believe I've ever read a post indicating that a trad hunter's bow was ever checked to determine if it met a state's minimum. Perhaps now some examples will surface.

Regardless, there are so many variables in bow/arrow performance (draw weight, draw length, arrow weight, bow design, broadhead design and sharpness, etc) that it would be about impossible to come up with a one size fits all regulation.

I suppose it's possible to come up with a minimum kinetic energy or momentum figure, but who understands those measures or how to derive or test for them.  IMO, just isn't needed.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Gooserbat on December 13, 2018, 01:52:14 AM
I think your overcomplicating it. 
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: toddster on December 13, 2018, 07:51:31 AM
Personally, I like to have the minimum stated by the State, which they deem "ethical" for the harvest of the game hunted.  I recall in my home state not to long ago, had to be minimum of 40#, no stone point broadheads, and could not use crossbows (though the latter I strongly agree with unless disabled).  I don't need someone to tell me how to hunt ethically, I do that for me and the animal.  One of the big things I see however, is that more and more firearm hunters are getting their own time in the woods, which is limiting bow hunters, which is B.S. to me.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: reddogge on December 13, 2018, 08:24:08 AM
A state must put something in the regs. on draw weight of bows and the simplest method is to pick a number. If I were you I'd have that number written on the bow so the DNR can read it. I think that's as sophisticated they are when it comes down to recurves and longbows. If you think they can understand and calculate draw weight formulas I think you are sadly mistaken.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: old_goat2 on December 13, 2018, 11:43:15 AM
I don't think I want to rock that boat, what I would appreciate is what I know Oklahoma has and maybe some other states that I don't know about, and that's primitive hunting areas (like State Wildlife Areas) and or whole units! I'd put in for that draw!
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: David Mitchell on December 13, 2018, 12:06:20 PM
I believe in local government as much as possible so prefer to keep it to my state to set regs, and as little regulation as possible.  So I would be a "no" on further regulations.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Sam McMichael on December 13, 2018, 01:03:57 PM
I am pretty much in line with David Mitchell on this.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: hvyhitter on December 13, 2018, 04:16:05 PM
Too many non-hunters are being involved in writing and updating DNR rules, regs and laws. This usually makes for a lot of over complication. Not sure that any universial regs or laws would be in our best interest. What if they just said min arrow speed 250 fps. Compounds and crossbows no problem, tradbows would be illegal...………
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: BAK on December 13, 2018, 05:27:11 PM
Pointless exercise in futility as nothing to stop someone from short drawing at any given point in time.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: OkKeith on December 13, 2018, 06:36:08 PM
LONG POST WARNING!!!

I'm certainly no physicist ... but with equal arrow weight the energy produced with 40# at 28 inches is the same as 40# at 31 inches. A pound of lead and a pound of feathers weighs the same. I'm sure there is some small variability due to the cast of the bow, limb length and other such that affect arrow speed.

Here is how the Oklahoma Regulations read:

Archery
This includes Deer Archery, Elk Archery, Antelope Archery & Bear Archery seasons.
• Bow: Any compound bow of 30 pounds or more draw weight; any recurve, longbow or self-bow of 40 pounds or more draw weight. Hand-held releases are legal. Devices that permit a bow to be held mechanically at full
or partial draw are allowed.

The first thing an Oklahoma Game Warden will look at on a "production" bow is the markings that say what the poundage of the bow is. If it reads 40# or more... you are back to hunting. If it is less you will have some explaining to do. The same with a homemade bow. There are provisions in the regs for selfbows. They may be generous and have a scale with them to measure the draw weight of your bow at your draw length, maybe not. If you have a scale with you, that might work. If you decide to be difficult the Warden may just decide to write the ticket. "Sign here, press hard, fifth copy is yours, court date is on the back." Then you have to fool with explaining to a judge about draw weights at your draw length and such. You might win but I doubt that would make for a good day in the field.

I'm not saying that anyone here on TradGang is this way... but I just don't understand the almost automatic resistance some folks have to regulations. We didn't have any regulations in the early part of the century and nearly hunted every significant game animal into extinction. I don't think people were less ethical then as opposed to now. I'm sure societal morays were different. Regulations are put in place as a fundamental bottom line for conduct. Ninety-eight percent of us operate above that bottom line but some folks get offended when a bottom line is established to keep that two percent in line. A lot of folks (not necessarily here mind you) carp about a regulation and say... "That's a needless/obtrusive/over bearing (pick your adjective de jour) rule. I would NEVER do that. It offends me to have that regulation!" What's offensive? If you wouldn't ever do it what difference does the rule make? Obviously someone has done it or there wouldn't be a regulation against it. Its been my experience in nearly thirty years of working in Natural Resource Management (and yes, some time spent in a Law Enforcement capacity) that folks in these agencies have a lot more to do than sit around and recreationally invent laws and regulations.

With the right conditions and opportunity you could probably kill a deer with a fifteen pound bow. Dead is dead... but the margin for a bad situation is much wider at fifteen pounds than it is at forty pounds. Might be even less at sixty pounds but forty is the compromise. I did a quick scan of the states in my region and most have similar poundage requirements. Forty to forty-five pounds for deer sized game animals seems pretty consistent.

Yes, I have had my bow checked in the field by a Game Warden. I have checked bows during field contacts myself. The WORST questions I got were the "Yeah, but what if I... (whatever)". My follow up was always, "Would you ever do that?" and almost every time their answer was, "Well... no." If the Regs say carry a bow of at least 40# draw weight, you are gonna waste a lot of hunting time if you can't show that it is pretty quick.

That's more than two cents worth... closer to a buck-fifty!

Stay warm,

OkKeith
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: bowzonly on December 14, 2018, 11:09:22 AM
“Bow hunting“ and I put it in quotes because in New Jersey that includes X guns has gotten so out of control that half of the whitetails harvested each year are taken during archery season Our wildlife management  areas are so small and get so much pressure during archery season that the deer are pushed out to be killed on the roads or into neighborhoods were  most of the hunting is done these days I only have access to public land and I am so frustrated that I will probably not even buy a license  next year the only way I would reconsider would be if they had special regulation areas or special areas Where you needed to draw a permit but I understand that that is a pipe dream
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: The Vanilla Gorilla on December 14, 2018, 12:26:04 PM
I'm just curious.  Has anyone ever had a game warden ask to put your bow on a scale to actually see if the poundage that's hand written with a Sharpie by Joe Blow Traditional Bows actually matches what is on a bow scale? 

I myself have not.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: nineworlds9 on December 14, 2018, 12:29:16 PM
Dave Rice are you making your proposal under the assumption that the sea of nonhunters and antihunters out there that could potentially influence the regulations you describe contains folks with a rational thought process such as yourself?  You'd be naïve to think so.  The only way it could possibly work is via a 50 state panel of VETTED hunters and wildlife biologists, but have you stopped to think what could happen if many of the ecofascist conservation groups caught wind of a proposal such as yours?  It would be like blood in the water.  One of the few protections for our sport is the fact that 50 legislative bodies exist to ennumerate hunting laws, and frankly I dont want someone from Oregon telling me how I can hunt whitetails in Florida.   
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: nineworlds9 on December 14, 2018, 12:43:37 PM
Oh all that and Ive never heard of a grown man out there now deliberately hunting game with a walmart plastic 15# kids bow.  Id like to know where this stuff is happening?   Honestly draw weight is a non-issue imho.  Now shooting skill...there is your real can of worms, shall we introduce regs on tradbow shot accuracy instead?  I can pick that one apart too.  There are hordes of folks who cant set up a 5 pin sight to save their life and guys who've made marginal hits on deer at 25 yds with a 70# wheel bow with no recovery, so higher draw weight is not automatically more lethal.   
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Miikka on December 14, 2018, 06:29:09 PM
To offer some outside perspective in Finland where I live we have quite the strict laws concerning bowhunting.
 -Bow of any type must be 40#@shooters draw lenght.
-The arrowhead for Euroopan deer must be at least 22mm or 0,8661 inches in diameter
-The arrowhead for small game must be either blunt or a broadhead that is considered "sufficient"
-For deer the hunter must pass a shooting test of 4 arrows shot inside of a circle of 23cm or ~9 inch diameter in 180 sec time limit. All arrows must be inside of the target zone.

Though some regulations are imho needed to keep the dumb 2% of hunters at bay, I've heard of a guy shooting at a moose with 30# wheelbow with a fieldpoint. I'd say dont rock the boat or you'll have this whole mess to deal with.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: McDave on December 14, 2018, 06:33:37 PM
-For deer the hunter must pass a shooting test of 4 arrows shot inside of a circle of 23cm or ~9 inch diameter in 180 sec time limit. All arrows must be inside of the target zone.

What distance is the target for this test?  Is that 4 out of 4 arrows, or 4 out of ?
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Miikka on December 14, 2018, 06:37:04 PM
Sorry about missing that info!
At 18m or 59 feet all 4/4 arrows in the target zone.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: McDave on December 14, 2018, 06:42:46 PM
That's pretty good shooting!  Do you get more than one chance if you get nervous the first time you shoot?
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Miikka on December 14, 2018, 06:48:02 PM
Yes you can try multiple times but each try cost 20€/$ as a fee for the organizing entity (shooting/hunting club usually). So might get expensive really fast If you have bad nerves.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: McDave on December 14, 2018, 06:59:27 PM
Sounds like a pretty realistic test.  I would like to have 4 arrows in a 6” group at 20 yards (or meters), but 4 arrows in a 9” group at 18 meters seems adequate for a test, giving the applicant a little leeway.  I don't know how many of the people I regularly shoot with could do that, although they probably would be able to eventually after enough 20€ tries.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: McDave on December 14, 2018, 07:09:24 PM
Sorry, just realized that 18 meters is approx 20 yards, so there's not much leeway there, but 6” vs 9” gives some leeway.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: OkKeith on December 15, 2018, 01:18:46 AM
Hey Cameron... how are things down your way? Good I hope.

When I was checking bow hunters mostly I was looking for correct permits, tags and liscenses. As a bow hunter myself I was pretty familiar with the equipment.  I never put a scale on a bow. Then again I never ran into a situation where I felt I needed too. I had one with me but never came across a bow I thought might be near enough to being too light I needed to check it. Just my experience.

Wildlife Law Enforcment Officers see.enough bows that they can tell if a bow is light. If they think they might be, they will check it out.
OkKeith
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: dirtguy on December 15, 2018, 03:29:23 PM
Is there really a a need for better regulations?  IN my state, you have to use a #40 draw weight bow and a minimum 7/8 inch wide broad head.  I cant remember a time when I heard of a violation of those standards.  Most of the time (and I do follow the arrest notices) people are pinched for jacklighting or hunting on land where they have no permission or hunting out of season, all of which amount to poaching.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Soonerlongbow on December 15, 2018, 07:17:47 PM
In all honesty I think our hunting is already too regulated as it is. Heck, every single thing we do is too regulated.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Jon Stewart on December 15, 2018, 09:11:20 PM
Which one of you guys wants to tell that little pollack that I am married to that hunts and kills deer with her 32# Bear cub or her 34# Bear Kodiak Magnum that she can't use those bows anymore, lol.

And to the states that don't allow stone points. They have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to banning them. I use stone that I knap and have killed deer with them.

Sorry but there are way too many regulations now.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: mgf on December 16, 2018, 06:55:55 AM
LONG POST WARNING!!!

I'm certainly no physicist ... but with equal arrow weight the energy produced with 40# at 28 inches is the same as 40# at 31 inches. A pound of lead and a pound of feathers weighs the same. I'm sure there is some small variability due to the cast of the bow, limb length and other such that affect arrow speed.

 
OkKeith

I don't think that's true. While both are 40 pounds the longer draw is pushing on the arrow over a greater distance resulting in more total energy under the force/draw curve.

To include your pound of feathers and lead... While they do weigh the same more energy is required to lift that pound of feathers or lead 31" than to lift it 28" inches.

It's an area under the curve thing.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: mgf on December 16, 2018, 10:10:37 AM
What's the purpose for these sorts of regulations?

If I were a deer (the hunted) I would prefer that the hunters be lousy marksmen and shooting very light bows because my goal would be to escape. Wounded is better than dead and mildly wounded is better than severely wounded.

As a hunter, I say let them go with insufficient equipment and skills...more game for me.

Sorry, these sorts of laws come from folks who just want to push other folks around.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Dave Rice on December 16, 2018, 04:41:44 PM
Not surprised by the replies. I'll just observe that it's not a question of whether we're being regulated, we are. My question was whether it would help if there was some rational thought behind the regulations, and the consensus is that it wouldn't. Fair enough. I agree that even among hunters, very few have any idea of what is an effective archery hunting setup, much less traditional equipment.

Miikka, I spend quite a lot of time in Finland--mostly Oulu where my company HQ is, as well as time in Hanko, Peranka, Kuusamo... Great outdoor and hunting culture. Like the archery example you mentioned, rifle hunters too have practical tests--can you hit your target, and they have to prove it every few years.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: Dave Rice on December 16, 2018, 05:02:06 PM
LONG POST WARNING!!!

I'm certainly no physicist ... but with equal arrow weight the energy produced with 40# at 28 inches is the same as 40# at 31 inches. A pound of lead and a pound of feathers weighs the same. I'm sure there is some small variability due to the cast of the bow, limb length and other such that affect arrow speed.


Length of power stroke matters, and it's a pretty big effect.

If you see a force draw curve, it's the area under the curve that illustrates energy that can be transferred to the arrow (and limbs, hand shock,...). Of course, as the draw gets longer, the curve extends increasing the area under the curve.

Regardless of what the charts say, you can prove it to yourself just watching the trajectory of a an arrow from a 40#@28" bow vs a 40#@31" bow using the same weight of arrow. A chrono just quantifies it.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: pavan on January 13, 2019, 05:26:08 AM
The PETA super liberal woman that lives down the street, called the cops because she thought that I gave her a dirty look, has killed 4 deer with her car, 3 in the last three years.   Considering what is going on in our government, the fewer regulations that they mess with and the more regulations that they eliminate, the better.   Change is coming, there is going to be a serious dip in road before it gets here, but change is coming.   I have been witness to a good number of deer killed with 38@26"  bows, The trick is not so much in the number as it is in the shooter and the broad head and flight of the arrow.  Simple regulations of numbers on bows cannot make that happen.  In fact, the least important thing is the number on the side of a bow.
Title: Re: Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?
Post by: YosemiteSam on February 04, 2019, 01:49:02 PM
CA regs state that for big game, broadheads need to be 7/8" minimum and your bow must be able to cast a hunting arrow at least 130 yards.  Seems pretty flexible and reasonable to me.  Considering our gun regs, the flexibility we have in the bowhunting regs is pretty nice.

Regulations are best when they restrict our behaviors (bag limits, seasons) rather than prescribe them.  Some people read the 10 commandments and see nothing but negative rules (Don't do this; don't do that).  But there is inherent wisdom in negative commandments over prescriptive ones.  Prescriptive rules (you must do this and only this) limit behaviors to only one course of action.  Negative rules leave the door wide open to just about anything except one single behavior.  In other words, there is more individual freedom with negative rules than prescriptive rules.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing more restrictions out here on some types of equipment.  I can point the finger at other hunters & their equipment but it's not really addressing the problems we face in our woods.