Trad Gang

Topic Archives => Hunting => Topic started by: Terry Green on April 26, 2004, 11:14:00 PM

Title: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Terry Green on April 26, 2004, 11:14:00 PM
Being that I shoot 4 blades almost exculsively, and Wensel Woodsmens outta some bows, I sharpen then a bit differently.  I got some big nasty Ace 175 two bladers...and applied Tom's method.  

The edge is micro serrated, and when you run your finger down the blade, its like it just sucks your skin deeper into the blade.  Just grabs and pulles deeper.  So, be careful if you try it.

  Tom Mussatto\\'s micro ripper (http://tradgang.com//noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000002)
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: StanM on April 27, 2004, 03:02:00 AM
Scary ain't they, Terry.  :scared:    I been a file fan since I started messing around with them a couple of years ago after watching Tom's video and reading Dean's article.  Good stuff.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Tom Leemans on April 27, 2004, 06:43:00 AM
I've liked file sharpening ever since I was a kid watching a film of Fred Bear sitting near a campfire, touching up his Razorheads with a file, saying something about making sure you touch them up every so often. After a few light strokes, he said "...and that's all you need."
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Legolas on April 27, 2004, 07:42:00 AM
Terry,

Dude did ya get my email?

Tom sent me some of his broadheads so I could know for sure what  his felt like.   :bigsmyl:  

When I clean up the micro serrations a bit after putting them in "Tom M." style, I almost get back to where I started.   :confused:  

Like I keep telling everybody don't file sharpen in just your boxers.


P.Byron Mullins
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Van/TX on April 27, 2004, 09:36:00 AM
Quote
 The edge is micro serrated, and when you run your finger down the blade, its like it just sucks your skin deeper into the blade.  
Yep, that's the way I was taught  :wavey:    :thumbsup:  ....Van
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Dean Torges on April 27, 2004, 09:19:00 PM
Yes, there's something wicked about that boy, but this ain't it. I think it's his sense of humor.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Tom Leemans on April 28, 2004, 10:27:00 AM
Hey Deano! How was Oz?
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Terry Green on May 07, 2004, 07:54:00 PM
Legolas,

Figured out why you may have been 'getting back to where you started' trying the Mussatto edge.

I goofed up today...and figured out why I did the same as you....wrong angle on the serations.

I applied TOO steep an angle making the serations.  Seems ya gotta be closer to the original angle you started with.  I made very steep angled serrations, and I had to start over.  

Gonna give it another go in a bit...my youngest came running in, and the B'head when up on the dresser ASAP   :scared:
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Terry Green on May 07, 2004, 08:00:00 PM
Yep...that did it.  And remember...VERY light pressure when knocking off the serration burr's or you reduce the serrations too much.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: JC on May 07, 2004, 09:28:00 PM
Any of you file sharpening fellows going to Elberton shoot? I gotta see this done in person...I've always done mine "smoother is better" but may have to try this.

Joe
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Terry Green on May 07, 2004, 09:36:00 PM
Geeezzz...can everyone get the sound on this video OK?....mine is playing very low.  Thought I'd have another look at it, and can just barely hear it.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Terry Green on May 07, 2004, 09:46:00 PM
Looks like I got a problem with my widows media player, since my real player's volume is just fine and dandy.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: bayoulongbowman on May 07, 2004, 09:50:00 PM
Terry , the volume has always been bad for me too mark#78
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Tom Mussatto on May 07, 2004, 11:43:00 PM
Yes, the quality of the video is bad, the sound is bad (lot of wind noise), and I don't explain things very well. It's a very easy and quick process but hard to explain. I'll try and do a better video clip tomorrow and send it to Terry.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Pinelander on May 07, 2004, 11:49:00 PM
Very sharp indeed. Serrated without a lot of "overworking" creates an evil-sharp edge. Got to use a very light touch when "cleanin' 'em up".
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Van/TX on May 07, 2004, 11:55:00 PM
(http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/v77/VanTX/Arrows/Deadhead.jpg)  :bigsmyl:    :wavey:    :thumbsup:  ....Van
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Tom Mussatto on May 08, 2004, 12:10:00 AM
Van, those old Deadheads had some of the best metal and temper for broadheads you can find. They take both a good smooth razor edge or a filed edge equally well.

What the heck you gonna do when you run out of those? Ya gotta be getting low by now.   :saywhat:
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Van/TX on May 08, 2004, 12:26:00 AM
Yep, gettin' low.  But heck, shooting Deadheads is like throwin' hand grenades.  You only got to get close  :bigsmyl:  Got some Z's in reserve.  Dang, you are up late Tom.  Have no idea why I'm here at this time  :wavey:  .....Van
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Tom Mussatto on May 08, 2004, 12:36:00 AM
"Have no idea why I'm here at this time"

To keep me company I suspect.  :)
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Van/TX on May 08, 2004, 12:44:00 AM
That's gotta be the only reason  ;)  ...Van
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Terry Green on May 08, 2004, 10:16:00 AM
Tom, wasn't the video, it was my brand spakin new hopped up super dooper magna decoater computer.  I finaly found the missing volume button.

Geezzzzzzz, ....Just how many volume adjustments does a computer need?
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Woodduck on May 08, 2004, 10:37:00 PM
Object not found!

I got a new 'puter and this is all I saw/heard...
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Terry Green on May 08, 2004, 10:55:00 PM
Tom updated the video today...see the thread started by Tom.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Terry Green on May 08, 2004, 10:58:00 PM
Here's the new link.....

  Tom\\'s sharpening clips... (http://tradgang.com//noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000002)  

Its been added to the Member Video forum.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: lone hunter on May 09, 2004, 08:54:00 AM
Just wondering if Tom has a tape available or written instructions on this sharpening technique? When watching the clips I get two words and then machine reloads for a couple minutes then two more words. Got through the first two clips and then tried procedure on some Zwickeys, worked great. Need to find out how to sharpen grizzlys.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: ckruse on May 09, 2004, 09:55:00 AM
Just for clarification, what head is Tom sharpening in this video. Is that a Ribtek? Looks like a great method for all around performance.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Tom Mussatto on May 09, 2004, 10:36:00 AM
Mike, I sharpen Grizzly’s the same way. The single bevel actually makes this head easier to work, at least for me. One of the biggest problems in sharpening broadheads free hand is maintaining a consistent stroke and keeping bevels even when working both sides of a blade. I accomplish this with double bevel heads by using the ferrule as a guide. With the Grizzly the flat side ensures consistency as long as you keep the flat side perfectly flat. One of the things all the little sharpening gadgets do is help maintain consistency in stroking each bevel, a must in getting good edges. If you can maintain consistency while working the bevels the gadgets are not needed.

Cameron, that is a Ribtek but one I have reworked. I prefer concave blades so I change the shape of my heads. There are folks with much more experience than I who say that convex heads, such as the Journeymen, are the most efficient. Others say straight blades are best, and others who believe concave are best. I honestly don’t know. I don’t shoot 100 animals a year, exactly duplicating shots for comparison, to come to any kind of reliable conclusion as to which shape is most effective. However, I would ask 2 questions. Here are two heads, both having an effective actual cutting width of 1 1/4". Which one would be least likely to windplane? Which head has the greatest mechanical advantage due to blade angle?

Perfectly straight flying arrows ,and good, durable, sharp blades have more impact on the effectiveness of a broadhead than blade shape, but blade design does have some effect.

   (http://tmuss.tripod.com/r.jpg)
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Legolas on May 09, 2004, 09:23:00 PM
Mr. Musatto,
Nice job on the video update. I have had your old one from your website saved on my computer for years. I remember arguing with you until you finally had to show me how you got that edge per video.

Mr. Green,
Tom's latest instruction doesn't leave much doubt how to do the micro serrations. Thanks for the comment.

Paul
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: ckruse on May 09, 2004, 09:35:00 PM
Thanks for the reply and great information. This site is awesome!   :)
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Tom Mussatto on May 10, 2004, 10:01:00 AM
I take them down on a grinder. Once you do a couple you can do one in about a minute. Never had a problem with changing temper due to heat but have heard guys say this is possible so take care not to over heat. On a 190 Ribtek you will end up with a head weighing 170 to 175 grains and maintain the same cutting width.

Paul, don't remember any arguments but do  remember some good discussions we and others had on edges. Still have the head we exchanged in my collection.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Hoodoo Arrow on May 10, 2004, 11:57:00 AM
Tom:

If you have a minute could you talk a little more about grizzlies.  You say to keep the flat side prefectly flat.  How the heck do you do that and get the burr off.  I have never had any trouble sharpening anything in my life. Gravers, chisels, knives.  You borrow my pocket knife and are brash enough to test it with your thumb, you better have 911 on speed dial cause you are going to need sewed up, but these grizzlies have me so frusterated I could puke.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Tom Mussatto on May 10, 2004, 12:28:00 PM
" but these grizzlies have me so frusterated I could puke."

Oh my Gawd, don't do that. :-)

This is not a Grizzly but principal is the same. I don't know if this is the best way to do it but works well for me. The hardest part of free hand sharpening broadheads is maintaining consistency on the angle of file/stone to blade and the single bevel with the flat side makes this easier than trying to keep consistant strokes on two bevels. A simple definition of sharpening an edge is to reduce metal on both sides of a blade 'til they meet on an edge. The closer they meet the sharper the blade.


  Grizzly (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/gr.wmv)
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: String Cutter on May 10, 2004, 01:29:00 PM
aLRIGHT, i REALLY WANT TO SEE THESE CLIPS. bUT EVERY  TIME i go to the page with them listed and click on one , All i get is a bunch of computer language filling up the screen.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Terry Green on May 10, 2004, 01:36:00 PM
See if this works.....

  Tom\\'s 2 Blade Sharpening clips. (http://tradgang.com//noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000002)
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Hoodoo Arrow on May 10, 2004, 02:25:00 PM
Thanks Tom:

I usually don't have a problem keeping good angles.  Hard zwickys, soft old razor heads or goofy feeling stainless in steel force, all have sharpened well for me.  I just can't seem to get anything better than a jagged, poor wire edge on a grizzly, and  I loose that when I try to take the burr off of the flat side.  I was tempted to refile the flat side and put an angle on it but haven't cause of the head width.  I dunno.  I might try a little emery paper on a board for the flat side.  It has really gotten under my skin I can't get these things sharp.  Making it hard to think about anything else.  I think the narrowness of the head and proximity of the ferule has maybe got me screwed up.  Thanks for your help.  Leo
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: String Cutter on May 10, 2004, 02:34:00 PM
Thanks Terry, But When I get to the list of the clips and then click on them, all i gett is a screen full of computer language. it drivin me nutts.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: insttech1 on May 10, 2004, 02:35:00 PM
String Cutter:
Open it in internet explorer, not netscape.
Netscape garbles it because of the codec.
I have to open all video from work with IE.

Good luck with it...
Marc
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: String Cutter on May 10, 2004, 03:51:00 PM
Tom, I finally got to see it. But do you use the ferrel as a gauge and run the file down, touching  it the full length ??? Or do you simply get the angle at the hill and lift it lightly off???  I also would like to know how much of the file can you use??? I start almost at the tip of the file and push to the tip of the BH until I've used the complete length of the file. But, from what I saw you do, You only use about an inch or so. Is is there any differnce in either way?? Thanks for your time and keep passing it on.   Tommy
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Tom Mussatto on May 10, 2004, 07:46:00 PM
Leo, you are right about the width causing problems with the Grizzly's. They are barely 1 1/8" new and it doesn't take much to quickly get them down to an inch. If you are wanting a fine, smooth, razor edge Elburg's original recommendation of lightly filing tip to back may give you better results. By filing into the blade from front to back does not create the big burr, less metal is removed, and you do not need to be concerned with the ferrule getting in the way. I personally don't care for this method as I prefer an edge with teeth in it, and being very uncoordinated this is a dangerous way to file a broadhead for me.

Tommy, using the file closer to perpendicular to blade than parallel seems to be less aggressive and removes less metal with each stroke. With a 6" file it's pretty hard to file back to front the entire length of file and still use the ferrule as a guide. I have to have some kind of guide when free hand sharpening to keep consistency in working each bevel. Once I work a new head down to where the ferrule and bevel match the length of blade I very lightly rest the file on the ferrule and the bevel when stroking the edge. Tipping the file up to get off the ferrule entirely gets me back to the point where of not having a consistant guide.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: John McCreary on May 10, 2004, 08:34:00 PM
Mr Mussatto Sir, would you be attending the minor gathering at Cloverdale, Indiana on the 11th - 13th of June? If so I will provide your food, adult beverage and what ever else you may require { as long as it be legal } just for a few hours of hands on instruction. Apparently I am file inhibited   :knothead:   and need a tutorial in person. Mr.Rick Stillman and Mr. Chuck Jones will attest to my being a person of low standing if you should require refrences.

John McCreary aka: RUGMAN
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Tom Mussatto on May 11, 2004, 10:22:00 AM
Mr. McCreary Sir (aw, the heck with that stuff) Hey John, don't yet know whether I will be at Cloverdale this year but if so I will be camped with Rick and Chuck, they also being people of low standing.    :)  

Rick and Chuck both prefer those "delicate, fine honed, smooth, sissy razor edges" but we have sat around the fire sharpening heads enough together that I'm sure they can show you what I do in case I don't make it. They will probably have a disgusted look on their faces while doing so but pay them no mind.
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: John McCreary on May 11, 2004, 02:09:00 PM
Very good, perhaps if Mr.'s Swan and Gille come as well we can have a meeting of the UBI's retrobates brotherhood  :bigsmyl: .
I'll bring some heads, a couple of files and my simple mind...

John
Title: Re: Tom Mussatto's wicked edge revisited....
Post by: Van/TX on May 11, 2004, 10:11:00 PM
Quote
   Rick and Chuck both prefer those "delicate, fine honed, smooth, sissy razor edges"  
:bigsmyl:    :bigsmyl:    :bigsmyl:  ....Van