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Topic Archives => Shooting => Topic started by: Razorbak on February 27, 2006, 12:05:00 PM

Title: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 27, 2006, 12:05:00 PM
ok here is the problem...I hate to tune arrows like alot of people but I do but it's always a pain in the butt to do so because it seems like alot of us short draw guys cant get away with what the general concensus reccomends..Im shooting a 62#@27" shrew..I draw 26 1/2"  my arrows are cut to 27 1/2" ( I dont want to leave them longer than that..personally choice)  Im shooting Beman MFX woodies 400 spine, I have a 100 grain insert and using 175 grain head which Im hoping is the key combo I want...so ok here is the dilemma..I cant the bow and shoot the bareshafts and it shows stiff and this goes on with either the 200 or 250 point I switched to but when I shoot straight up and down using either point weight combo..I end up with the bow shooting the arrows slightly weak and high nock like the way it should be...now why is that?????  I heard that it doesnt matter but why do I keep seeing these results...now I know I can go to a 500 spine but it will be way lighter than I want which is about 100 grains less and with the 400,s  Im almost 70grains more than I want and that I can deal with, so any help and idea's and if this helps Im a lefty and I shot yesterday in a controlled environment ..so no wind or light changes and I shot these shafts bare and with feathers with the wraps that I use with the silencers I use...so basically all set up and I took all shots @17 yards...so what is correct??????    ps. I used a TS-1 string I twisted up with rubber silencers and the nocks fit perfect..not to tight or loose...just right
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: mike g on February 27, 2006, 12:10:00 PM
I would say, bare shaft the same way you normaly shoot your bow....
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: JC on February 27, 2006, 12:56:00 PM
My personal experience with carbons has proven to me you can have 2 of these 3 choices with carbons...but rarely all three: the weight you want, the length you want, and the arrow brand you want. Personally, I'd let go of the desire to have 27 1/2" total length and make em fly right. I draw about 27-27 1/2" and I shoot arrows a little over 29" because that's what it took to get the weight/flight combo I wanted.

Also, there are certainly other arrow brands that will give you a heavier weight with 500 spine...or at least get you closer to the weight/length you want.

And I agree with mike, testing should be done with the bow setup exactly as you plan to use it: same quiver, string, silencers, wind checker, glove, etc. etc.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: 1gutpile on February 27, 2006, 12:58:00 PM
I agree with Mike G...bareshaft identical to how you are going to shoot ...gut
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 27, 2006, 01:26:00 PM
I cant when I shoot...makes sense to bareshaft that way  and JC yes I should get over the fact about longer shafts but it just irritates me to have so may extra inces over my shelf   :knothead:  and I dont mind cutting them to 28" BOP  perhaps I will do that  :bigsmyl:  ...the heaviest weight in a 500 spine I have found is the beman MFX woodies...I just ran the numbers and maybe I will give them a shot again..
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: JC on February 27, 2006, 01:38:00 PM
Are the MFX 9.7/inch? I didn't think they were as heavy as the max 4 but then, never had em in my hands so they might just be. I've got a 56" super Shrew Samurai 58#@27" that I shoot Max 4 400's a touch over 29", normal HIT insert, 200 grain head, dip/crest, 3 4" shields = approx 530gr.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 27, 2006, 01:59:00 PM
JC
from what I can gather they weigh 500 - 9.7 gpi, 400 - 10.4 GPI  for the Beman MFX Classic and Im using the 100 grain brass inserts on the 400's and from what the numbers say..Im gonna be about 605grains and thats with 175 head and on the 500's I will be about 458grains using a 145 head using the regular inserts
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 27, 2006, 02:01:00 PM
PS. I would really hate to use anymore than the 250 heads cause with the 100 grain insert..Im pushing 350grains on the head
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: JC on February 27, 2006, 02:09:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Razorbak:
PS. I would really hate to use anymore than the 250 heads cause with the 100 grain insert..Im pushing 350grains on the head
Front heavy loaded carbons work well though man. Hope you solve the puzzle...carbons are certainly different to tune than aluminum. Good luck!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: O.L. Adcock on February 27, 2006, 02:14:00 PM
Razorbak, Are you looking at shaft angle or grouping with fletched shafts?? The bow and arrow shouldn't care one way or the other and surely shouldn't show opposite indications.....O.L.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Tim on February 27, 2006, 02:18:00 PM
Hey Art,

I wanted to throw this out at you since we both have the same bow and draw length. Here's my setup on my shrew. 60" 57@26. I draw 26...I've got one of John McCullough's strings (450+)on the bow. My arrows are Heritage 150's 27" with a wrap and 175 grain tips, 515 grains. If I bare shaft them they are nock left (I'm a lefty also, so that's stiff), not super stiff but definitely stiff. Art, here's the kicker....

When I fletch them with 3 five inch feathers and shoot them through paper they punch a flawless hole! Any where from 4 feet back to 10 feet back.  If you stand behind me and watch my arrow flight at a 60 yard target flight is absolutely perfect.

I did have a difficult time finding the right arrow for my shrew.  It was a bit finicky and always seemed to like a lighter spined shaft. I've always had to stick with either 2016's or the carbon 150's with a heavy tip. As far as canting, I've found that when I get the "right" shaft I can cant or shoot vertically and get the same results.

Talk to you later.....Tim
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 27, 2006, 02:27:00 PM
JC..the front heavy FOC do works but man thats alot of weight still  :bigsmyl:  
OL.. I am looking at the way the shafts fly downrange and the way they stick into the target...should I rather go for groups?  I always wonder if the shaft gets wet it would still fly good..thats why I keep trying to make them weaker
Tim..after talking to you awhile back I was gonna try the carbon express woodies but some reason I wanted to try the bemans again..LOL  maybe I will order 1/2dz. of them to try   I love carbons and havent shoot wood in over 10 years but man it always seem frustrating to tune
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: JC on February 27, 2006, 02:33:00 PM
OL, you are indeed the guru of tuning....but I have two bows that show a definate difference when canted. Not sure if it's the grip or what, but "something" changes arrow impact with degree of cant, drastically when the bow is held perfectly horizontal vs. perfectly vertical (like 5 inches high at 15 yards). Not that way with all my bows but these two for certain.

And Art, read OL's section on tuning on his website, should have mentioned that earlier too. I personally use how the shaft sticks in my pile of sand to get in the ballpark, and then move to distance and groups as OL's site recommends to do final tuning.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 27, 2006, 02:58:00 PM
I read Ol tuning page and after all the reading i should be good to go but this little problem still arises for me when i tune a bow
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: O.L. Adcock on February 27, 2006, 03:06:00 PM
Razorbak, Tim's example up there is a good one, there's about 400 "other" things will cause a shaft not to fly or stick in a target straight and they all look alike. Most that try to "fix" a problem using that method ultimately wind up with over spined shafts or can't get the problem to go away no matter what they do. Enter the frustration!  :)

Fletched shafts go pretty close to where they are pointed even if the spine is way off. They are your reference point. Where bare shafts or large fletched broadheads group in relation to the fletched field tips tells you exactly what is wrong. The only thing that will cause fletched feild tips to group one place and bare shafts another is tuning related only. Errors in form will only make both groups bigger.

To put it into perspective the best matched set up for your bow may or may not "shoot straight" unless your form is flawless. Most of us don't fall into that catagory. Stack fletched field tips, bare shafts, and large fletched broadheads into a pie plate from as far away as you can shoot a good group and you're in there no matter what "angle" the bare shafts are....O.L.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 27, 2006, 03:15:00 PM
OL that makes alot of sense...thank you..I will try again and from what I was shooting the other day..my groups were within 3" of each other so even if the shaft is slighty stiff I can get away with good flight and vice or versa....man I gots lots of thinking to do now..LOL    thank you everyone
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: ShootStraight on February 27, 2006, 04:04:00 PM
Is your form exactly the same while shooting canted or uncanted? You probably know already but a small change in ones form can make huge changes when tuning, espically with a bare shaft. My bow hand seems to slide a touch more to the outside when canting the bow, which is the way I shoot. The position of your head can have an impact as well as related to the torque your string hand is putting on the string. Be sure to tilt your head to compensate for the canted bow to keep the relation the same. Does any of that make sense?!
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: O.L. Adcock on February 27, 2006, 04:24:00 PM
Razorbak, If they are grouping that close, back up, the further away, the more it tells you plus what you are looking for is slightly weak and nock point high will be the most forgiving.....O.L.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: olddogrib on February 27, 2006, 04:51:00 PM
O.L.
Is it just me or do bare shaft carbons tend to have a noticeable little waggle come off the bow.  I use your method and the bare shafts group with fletched and even stick in the target straight, but seem to have a little nock left kick (I'm right handed) coming off the bow before they straighten out.  It's disconcerting, but I guess if I get the other results I shouldn't complain.  Could also be a lack of concentration with me trying to pick up arrow flight with my non-dominant eye.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: last arrow on February 27, 2006, 04:55:00 PM
O.L. - what defines "slightly weak" spine, i.e., how do you know it is only slightly weak vs. to weak.  I've often heard that you should tune slightly weak spine but never really understood how to quantify this.

As always, your comments are very informative.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Ken999 on February 27, 2006, 05:04:00 PM
last arrow...keep taking away tip weight until a stiff indication is shown, then work back to a perfect/weak indication...
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: O.L. Adcock on February 27, 2006, 06:14:00 PM
Ken999 pretty much got it. For example if 145's group right in there, 125's better shoot stiff and 160's weak. If a fellow is going to cut the shafts, the same would apply, verify with point weight before cutting! In the example above start cutting 1/2" at a time to dial in the 160's.

Blane, depends on how good your groups are and at what distance. If the bare shafts tend to group low and right (rt handed shooter) with the middles say 6" apart at 20 yds, but your groups are 6", that's not bad. If your groups are 2" but middles 6" apart, that needs some work. Mostly if the groups overlap about 1/2 way, that'
s pretty good.

Olddogrib, I'd look for something like arrow nocks too tight or try putting another nock set below your arrow. I have to do that, somehow during my release I'll slide the arrow down a bit giving me up/down flyers. If you can get them in the target "straight", might very well be they are too stiff and hitting the shelf/riser giving you that left kick?? Have you tried a heavier point?? If they are stiff to the point of bumping the riser, it might take a lot of weight. ....O.L.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: SL on February 27, 2006, 06:43:00 PM
Lots of good info.
I bare shaft first then when I'm close take some fletched field points and some 3 blade snuffers fletched and see how they shoot. The 3 blades always seem to tell me what I need to do. Specially regarding nock point.
SL
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: last arrow on February 27, 2006, 07:05:00 PM
Thanks Guys
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: O.L. Adcock on February 27, 2006, 07:09:00 PM
You bet SL! I seldom bare shaft, I go straight the big BH's and can always drop to smaller/narrower later if they are the same weight. Two real godd reasons to bare shaft, if you are setting "target" arrows you aren't going to put BH's on, or if you are commited to one weight BH and don't want to buy more. Many folks don't have several dozen assorted BH's laying around to tune with and some are darned sure expensive! Bare shafting first will get a person in the ball park  :) ....O.L.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Rob DiStefano on February 27, 2006, 08:22:00 PM
As I've gotten older, I've gotten lazier (and probably dumber instead of wiser) so I rarely bother with bare shafting.  Even better is not having to spine the hex pine shafts for the stiff side.  

All my longbows are 50#'s and I've found that straight, 60#+ spined hex pines and 145-190 grain points and broadheads, and 6" semi-helical trad banana feathers, provide good flying arras provided I do my part with aiming and releasing.  Proper arrow aiming alignment, ala Jim Ploen's article, and heavy spined 550-600 grain arras - worx best fer me.  

Oh, yeah - canting the bow is a total requirement for instinctive barebow hunting/archery - IMO.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 27, 2006, 10:24:00 PM
As far as I can tell...I keep my body position the exact same way  when I cant...very consistant my buddies say...but when I shoot straight up and down I keep my head more in line but I draw to the exact same point
OL..  Im already shooting at 17 yards..how much further should I go...I try for the slight weak and high and the only way I can get that is by shooting straight up and down and when canting..I get stiff arrows..thats whats frustrating...thats what I feel is frustrating for us short draw guys who shoots the heavier weights and shorter draw..LOL
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Tree Ghost on February 27, 2006, 10:53:00 PM
Ok, I've got to ask a few questions as well.  I am new to the carbons and love them.  I bare shaft tune and can usually get a broadhead to do the bare shaft thing out to 20 yards or more.  I've been reading nock point high.  I always just set my nock poing to wear the bare shaft is sitting even along side a fletched shaft in the target.  I actually keep a bare shaft around to tell me what the heck is going on with my arrow flight at times.  Why do I want a high nock point, and how is it more forgiving?????
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: O.L. Adcock on February 27, 2006, 11:28:00 PM
Tree Ghost, I sure hope you're not shooting BH's bare shaft?? If you are and getting away with it, they must be very narrow?? Got any "marks" on the outside of your arrow shelf?? That's where the arrow hits when you get a poor release. Slightly string nock high will help avoid that contact but won't hurt good release accuracy. You're still going to miss with a poor release, just not as far.

Razorbak, you are basing that on shaft angle are you not?? Or relation to the "spot"? Ignore that, just go by the relationship of the groups. Your fletched shats are the refference point, not the spot. How far can you keep fletched shafts on a paper plate?? The FITA folks bare shaft out to 90 meters. That flight shooting stuff, I might as well be shooting bare shafts, fletching 1/2"x1/4" dove feathers!

Yep Rob, us old buzzards can just tell what they need!  :) ....O.L.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 28, 2006, 01:18:00 AM
OL...I see the shaft flying somewhat straight or slight nock left all the way to the spot on the target and the angle that it hits.   my fletched shafts I can keep them on  a spot and keep the bare and fletched shafts 3 to 5"  at about 17 yards and this is with a bow canted and hitting nock left for the bare shaft that is and the fletch shaft flys pretty darn good.. and no more room to shoot unless I head out side but with high winds and snow drifts I didnt want to frustrate myself any more than I already have and 90 meters...forget that..I cant even see the target at that distance...LOL
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 28, 2006, 01:57:00 AM
Ok after re reading all the info Im gonna try everything again and see where I end up..if they are grouping from any distance I shoot them from (fletched) then i should be pretty close and not to worry how they stick into the target in a angle...man I love carbons but its so confusing..LOL
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Rob DiStefano on February 28, 2006, 05:39:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Razorbak:
Ok after re reading all the info Im gonna try everything again and see where I end up..if they are grouping from any distance I shoot them from (fletched) then i should be pretty close and not to worry how they stick into the target in a angle...man I love carbons but its so confusing..LOL
For bowhunting, I want the arras to straighten out as quick as possible for flicking through the brush without glancing off (hence I use big, long and tall helical fletching) ... and for best penetration into game vitals the arra should be entering in as straight as possible so as to aid the broadhead's efficiency ... even with good flying arras, a bad/sloppy release can add a buncha wobbles that'll take some distance for the fletches to do their job and fix the human mistake(s).
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 28, 2006, 07:51:00 AM
from what i can see...the arrows with feathers fly absolutely beautiful...just the darn bareshafts that i cant get to do what' thier supposed to, and i just re read what i wrote above and i worded it all wrong...i meant to say that i shouldnt worry that much how the bareshaft sticks in a angle..seems like that is rthe general consensus
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Pignut on February 28, 2006, 07:58:00 AM
There's a lot of good info on this thread and OL's site really helped me out by focusing on the grouping and not the exact shaft angle.  I was bareshafting this past weekend with a new bow and used that method to dial it in until it was good enough for who it's for.  That being said, riddle me this... I have a good friend (Art you know him)who shoots a recurve that is 56#@29".  Every bow I hand the guy he shoots the same arrows with, never bother's to bareshaft (I'm not saying I recommend or endorse this).  I can hand him a 50# BBO, or a 60# hybrid longbow and he'll shoot the same arrows with beautiful flight and exceptional accuracy all the way out to 30yds (and beyond).  I have taken some of his arrows and bareshafted them out of these bows and they fly horribly, yet he consistently and humanely kills multiple deer every year.  This 'phenomenon' has really forced me, as Rob said, to focus more on my release and my form as that is the only only thing I can attribute this too.  It's amazing (or to us plebes, incredibly frustrating) what  consistent form and a clean release can do for your shooting.

Pete
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 28, 2006, 08:06:00 AM
yep he does...doesnt he shoot like 2117 or something...LOLbareshafting can be frustrating but man this little diddy has me stump...it seeems like for guys that have under a 28" draw it can be at a disadvantage
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: O.L. Adcock on February 28, 2006, 10:34:00 AM
Yes Pete, with really good form even poorly spined arrows group well. For a guy like that, Ok, he gots a 3" group with poorly tuned arrows, he's get 1 1/2" with better tuning. Mine would go from 10" to 20"!  :)  With field tips, it's not a big deal, it's broadheads, wet feathers, short draws due to odd shooting positions and cold weather. All add up to doing pretty good in July on the range and unexplained screw ups in November.

Razorbak, sounds like you are trying to mix two methods, pick one of them and stick with it!

Like Rob said, feathers are there to correct any flight problems and they will do so within reason no matter if it's a tuning issue or human issue. The goal of good tuning is to get rid of the tuning issues leaving only the harder to fix form problems. A bare shaft won't stabilize as quick as when fletched. Even if initially shot "straight", they won't stay that way long, they'll swing off to one side, then the other but will stay fairly well on course. A poorly spined one will do the same thing except it will "plane" off course. Again, seeing that angle doesn't tell you if there is something wrong or not. The frustration comes from trying to fix something that may or may not be broke. If bare shafts will "group" with fletched field tips and wide broadheads at 30, 40 or 90 yards, who cares what "angle" they are in the target or what angle they were flying to get there. Even tiny fletching will correct that in 6'. It's kind of like having a car with a severly out of line front end, sure you can hold against it and drive straight, big feathers will do the same. It's covering up problems that should be fixed instead of having to fight it....O.L.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 28, 2006, 10:59:00 AM
ok i will stick to 1 method...thanks for the help
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Pignut on February 28, 2006, 11:09:00 AM
I agree with you totally O.L., I guess I am just scared to see what he would do with everything dialed in.  It's embarrassing enough to shoot with him as is!  He's got 40yrs of shooting experience over me and it seems to be working for him so I don't try and change him.  
I am still a stickler for bareshafts but I also use them as a tool for building my form and my release.  They allow me to see things that the fletching would hide and also help me determine if the tiller of a bow is as good as I can get it. In the end good bareshafting gives me much needed confidence in the equipment.  I go as far as to bareshaft every wood shaft I make up in order to allow for the discrepancy created by the inherent variabitlity of the natural material.

Art- I believe they are 2113's but I'm not sure.  I don't think it matters.  I won't even get into how high his nocking point is.

Pete
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Rob DiStefano on February 28, 2006, 11:11:00 AM
What OL said.  Big feathers cheat the arra tune, and it's always best to get bare shafts to fly decent (not perfect) from the get-go, then fletch up.  Unless yer old, crusty and lazy, and set in yer ways - like me.   :cool:
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Tree Ghost on February 28, 2006, 11:23:00 AM
Adcock, Yes I am shooting a broadhead bareshaft.  A stinger 150 grain.  I'm not following why this is a problem?  I get a bareshaft to fly with my fieldpoint, and when I get close, I switch and work things to make sure my broadhead flys.  Is there a concern?
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Rob DiStefano on February 28, 2006, 11:35:00 AM
Bareshafting tuning with broadheads?  Nope, not gonna happen, at least for me.  Even the slickest of broadheads are too much forward area with no tail feathers and the arras are gonna dance.  

Bare shaft with the appropriate pile point weight, do yer tweaking for optimum flight, fletch up and check for issues, pull the piles and go to broadheads. YMMV.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Tree Ghost on February 28, 2006, 11:40:00 AM
Then, why is this working for me.  I thought that I would do this so that I would have some confidence when the snow and crap kill my feathers in the weather.  I started doing this last year, and actually changed a few things on my bow this winter, and did it again 2 weeks ago.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Razorbak on February 28, 2006, 11:41:00 AM
Im gonna redo everything and go from there...thanks all for your help and suggestion...Pete..either way ..Bud is a darn good shoot just as long as he stop breaking draws with his gorrilla draw..LOL
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: O.L. Adcock on February 28, 2006, 12:31:00 PM
Tree Ghost, I don't know how wide those broadheads are but like Rob said, broadheads want to become the feathers and do the steering. If you have very good form and the arrows have a high FOC from a close enough distance, you can probably get away with it. Just being off a little bit in spine or mess up one release and that arrow is going to try to fly backwards! Some wild things can happen that will have you ducking under the car! I agree in tuning to the point that wet feathers isn't a problem but for safety's sake, do it with wet feathers!....O.L.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Rob DiStefano on February 28, 2006, 01:07:00 PM
And ... there are broadheads and then there are Broadheads - I like to get as close to a 3:1 ratio as possible, so that means Grizzly's, Ribby 190's, STOS (I think), Hills, and of course the Wensel tri's - to name just some.  Short wide blades are gonna be added trouble, IMO.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: mindbender on February 28, 2006, 03:13:00 PM
Now...why would the cant of the bow NOT affect the way you 'read' the groups?  

If paradox is the arrow righting it'self after leaving the bow and you cant the bow 20 degrees would you not then have to account for that in how you read the groups..ie a weak group would be right and low (20degree) where the opposite would be left and high (20 degree).  SO it could interfere with reading knock point???

seems right to me but.....
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: Tree Ghost on February 28, 2006, 03:44:00 PM
Thanks guys.  I must be getting a little lucky.  The other reason that I started doing this was that I couldn't find a field point that weighed 150 grains for my Max 4s.  As close as I could find was a 145 that a guy in Idaho was having made for himself.  I also can't find a brass washer that fits this small diameter shaft so that I can add a little weight.  I've done ok out to 20-25 yards, but at 30 things start to get wild.  Thanks agin, and if you know of anyone that makes a 150 grain field point for the small diameter shaft, let me know.
Title: Re: when bare shafting, cant or no canting
Post by: O.L. Adcock on February 28, 2006, 05:21:00 PM
Mindbender, Lets say you are off a bit on your spine and they are weak grouping low right at 4 o'clock with the bow vertical. Cant the bow 20 degrees, they will now group at 5 o'clock. Paradox is NOT a left/right thing you can see, it's vibration/oscilation more like a guitar string being plucked. If you see wobbles, that's not paradox, that's the result of the timing of the paradox being off. This is more closely related to acoustics then another branch of physics. We are trying to adjust the timing of those oscilations so they are in-line where the arrow was pointed at the time of release. It's harmonics that arrow stiffness, length, and weight distribution effects.

Good tuning with the bow vertical they should group with and or overlap low right, cant the bow they still mix low right. The big thing is knowing a problem exists. If they group together a problem doesn't exist and canting the bow will make no difference.

I think some hold the bow vertical and for example their fletched arrows group to the left of a "spot", they cant the bow and they are online, they cant it more and they group right. That has nothing to do with tuning, what's happening is they aren't keeping the arrow under their eye. They are moving their rear sight around. The grouping left/right in the bare shaft planning method has nothing to do with where they group relative to a "spot", only how they group relative to each other when you are aiming at a spot. Poorly spined fletched field tips will fly close to where they are pointed, bare shafts or big broadheads will not. If fletched field tips group somewhere other then in line with the spot it cause we aren't pointing them there for what ever reason....O.L.