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Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: arachnid on March 24, 2019, 09:26:45 AM

Title: split vision training methods
Post by: arachnid on March 24, 2019, 09:26:45 AM
Hi Guys.
I`ve been sooting instinctive for several years, and recently I`m trying to improve my accuracy by starting to apply split vision to my sight picture. I understand that`s similar to what Howard Hill used (he called it indirect aiming).
I don`t want to transition to gap and then use split vision, just apply split vision elements to my shooting.

Is that possible?
If so, I`d like to know some training methods I can use to improve.
Thanks
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: McDave on March 24, 2019, 10:57:57 AM
From everything I’ve read, Howard transitioned directly from instinctive to split vision.  I’ve haven’t read anything to indicate that he ever used gap.  My own opinion is that Howard would have been unlikely to want to use gap other than maybe to try it out because the methodical requirements of gap would interfere with his fluid shooting style.

The biggest problem that people seem to have in learning to shoot either gap or split vision is to maintain the focus on the target at all times, and keep the arrow point in the out of focus peripheral vision.  If you find yourself switching your focus back and forth between the target and the arrow point, or worse, focusing on the arrow point instead of the target, you should let the shot down and start over again.

The biggest advantage of split vision over gap is that you can keep your mind in the non-cognitive mode of thinking (thinking without using words) when shooting split vision, the same as you would when shooting instinctive.  So try not to overthink it.  There are advantages to gap over split vision also, but we are not interested in those right now.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: arachnid on March 24, 2019, 11:34:01 AM
The main problem I seem to have is that I'm focusing on the target without paying enough attention to the position of the arrow. I'm trying to get a "mental imprint" so I can shoot the same shot again but I find it very difficult.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: McDave on March 24, 2019, 12:09:23 PM
Yes, that seems normal to me when transitioning from instinctive to split vision.  One of the main things we’re told to do when learning to shoot instinctive is to ignore the arrow point, and now you want to completely reverse that!

Give yourself at least 60 days of shooting while trying to be aware of the arrow point in your out of focus peripheral vision (60 actual shooting days, not total days) to change a firmly established habit.  Make sure you’re not focusing on the arrow point.  You’ll get there.  It’s a great way to shoot, as Howard Hill discovered.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: arachnid on March 24, 2019, 12:28:55 PM
Thanks Dave.
Do you know any actual techniques  for training other then just shoot?
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: McDave on March 24, 2019, 12:47:16 PM
To put it into perspective, 99% of learning to shoot the bow is learning good form, and 1% is learning to aim.  However, if you think you have a good handle on the 99%, here is a good article on the other 1%:  http://www.tradgang.com/pdf-files/aiming_the_arrow.pdf
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: arachnid on March 24, 2019, 12:49:55 PM
Thanks Dave.  I'm going to print it right away.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Sam McMichael on March 24, 2019, 02:07:24 PM
I don't know if my aiming method falls under split vision or not. Maybe kinda sorta, but at least it works for me. I maintain focus on the intended point of impact like instictive, yet in my peripheral vision, I am aware of the arrow shaft, but closer to my eye, not at the point. I do not see the point itself at all. My natural tendency when not being aware of the general direction my arrow is pointing is to shoot considerably to the right (no, I'm not left eye dominant, just not well coordinated). This allows me to know the arrow is at least generally pointed straight down range. Initially, it took real effort not to use the point in a gapping sequence. I do not use an especially fast release but rather a deliberate, albeit sometimes sloppy, one.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Jim Casto Jr on March 26, 2019, 11:16:52 AM
Bob Wesley, a protégé of Howard Hill wrote a book several years ago called, “Indirect Aiming."  It was a comprehensive guide to teaching the method.  I’ve got a copy of it somewhere; it’s really simple.

You simply go to your target and lay a paper plate on the ground or just below the mark. At 10 yards you focus on the tip of the arrow in the center of the plate. Move the plate, up or down, until you’re hitting the mark. Then, you transfer your focus to the mark, noticing the tip of the arrow in the center of the plate in your periphery. Stay there until you burn that sight picture into your mind.

Move to 15 yards and repeat; 20, 30 etc. etc.

In short order you’ll have your sight picture at different distances burnt in your mind and can quit using the plate.  Indirect aiming is sort of like a hybrid between instinctive and gap.  You’ll get to the place where you get a “feel” for the gap. 
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: moebow on March 26, 2019, 04:50:17 PM
Yes, I agree with Jim C.  Bob Wesley will teach you to gap, write down the gaps at different distances then "evolve" you into learning the gap distances (memorize) and then moving the gaps into your secondary vision.  It works WELL!!  I believe that learning a split vision technique from "purely" instinctive technique would be difficult since you nave no "starting" reference.

Arne
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: arachnid on March 26, 2019, 05:01:33 PM
I've read an article by Bob Wesley that explains his method in short. The thing is I don't want to start memorizing gaps and distances. I guess it'll be challenging to move from instinctive to split vision without gap but I'm willing to take it.
What I'm trying to do is located the arrow in my peripheral vision in the pre-draw step and take a mental note of its location. Then I draw, anchor and make sure my sight picture looks right. Then I release. I think i can use the pre-draw step as a reference.
I'm also trying to apply a somewhat rotational draw so I'm changing a few things in my technique.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: moebow on March 26, 2019, 05:18:18 PM
Sorry arachnid, that makes NO sense to me.  Howard's "split vision" technique is a refinement of gap aiming.  IF you don't have an idea of the hold under (or over) for a target then what you see in your peripheral vision has no relevance.  In that case "instinctive aiming" (whatever that is) is a better approach.

Arne

PS. "pre-aiming" ??   As in before you start the draw?  Do you aim a gun precisely, then get a cartridge out of your pocket, place it in the chamber, etc. all the while holding a careful aim????  I submit that the bow isn't aimed until at full draw. No sense in aiming until you are loaded and ready to shoot.

PPS. Good luck!!

Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Jim Casto Jr on March 26, 2019, 05:58:53 PM
Pre-aiming, to my notion, is one of the absolute best ways for many to aquire target panic.  Please don't ask how I know that.

I think aiming is best left until after you've come to full draw and engaged your back.  When you're loaded, you can then aim.

Good luck to you.

Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: McDave on March 26, 2019, 11:54:29 PM
I don't believe that Howard Hill ever memorized gaps and distances. I believe he started down the path toward split vision by wanting a method for improving on his first shot.  He no doubt had almost perfect form, so he could be confident that wherever his first arrow went, his second arrow would also go if he held the same for his second shot.  The problem was, what if his first shot went low or high?  He found that if he noticed where the arrow point was when he fired his first shot, then if his first shot went low or high, he had a point of reference to adjust for his second shot.  This is a short hop away from always noticing where the arrow point is for any shot, and placing the arrow point in the same relative position for any shot where the distance seems to be the same. 

What is really the difference between “seems to be the same” and “seems to be 30 yards?”  The difference is that “seems to be 30 yards” requires cognitive thinking, which takes your mind away from awareness of the bow, which is only possible when thinking non-cognitively.  This is fine if you want to hunt with a range finder or shoot at marked distances.  But if you want to hunt without a rangefinder or shoot at unknown distances, I believe split vision works better than gap.  I think this is really what Howard Hill meant when he said, “You have to decide what you want to do, boys, hunt or shoot targets.”  (Probably not the exact quote).  If you want to aim using split vision, I see no benefit in taking a detour through gap.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: arachnid on March 27, 2019, 01:13:42 AM
Dave you nailed it.
That's exactly what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for a new aiming method, I enjoy shooting instinctively and most of my shooting is 3D, without knowing the distance.  All I'm looking for is a way to improve accuracy and some kind of reference system I can use to current the next arrow should I miss the first one.

Arnie, I get the point about pre-aiming. I don't think that's what I'm doing.  I'm not aiming . I'm focusing on the target.  My pre-draw step is just some kind of "check point " for me to make sure I'm still focused AND locate the arrow in my peripheral vision.  I hope that makes more sense now. Kind hard to explain 🤷‍♂️
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Wolftrail on March 30, 2019, 10:37:27 PM
Great topic but could someone explain split vision in a few sentences and/or simpler terms.  I understand the concept of gap.  My way of shooting is hold my eyes on the target as I draw then momentarily view the arrow tip then hold eyes on target at my anchor and let loose.  I have heard of so many methods it makes my head spin.  Also heard of a Modified Gap.. :dunno:

"He found that if he noticed where the arrow point was when he fired his first shot, then if his first shot went low or high, he had a point of reference to adjust for his second shot."   I used that method in 3-D and it worked great for me.   Problem is the first shot is a dud no matter how you look at it.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Jim Casto Jr on March 30, 2019, 10:41:22 PM
Focusing on the mark but being aware of where the tip of the arrow is in your periphery.



Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: McDave on March 30, 2019, 11:19:52 PM
“My way of shooting is hold my eyes on the target as I draw then momentarily view the arrow tip then hold eyes on target at my anchor and let loose.”

That could be your problem.  As Jim said, focus on the mark.  Do not momentarily view the arrow tip.  Instead, keep focusing on the mark all the time.  Keep the arrow tip in your peripheral vision all the time.  This can seem a little weird at first, looking at two things at the same time, one of them clear, one of them fuzzy.  It's something you may be a little reluctant to let yourself do.  But keep at it and after a while you'll feel pretty normal about it. If you momentarily view the arrow tip, let the bow down and start all over again.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Wolftrail on March 30, 2019, 11:30:17 PM
 "Keep the arrow tip in your peripheral vision all the time."     thx guys in a nutshell that pretty well wraps it up.   Hopefully it wont take me long to re-adjust.  At times I may vary or stray from my norm which some us do occasionally and  Subconsciously fluke out so to speak.   I like fluking when another archer is standing beside me.    :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: pavan on April 07, 2019, 07:16:54 PM
When I shift my focus from target to arrow tip, the eye NOT over the arrow sees the arrow better because it has a better side perspective.  When shooting left handed, if i stop and look at my draw length I will tend to shoot high and right.  If i pull that stunt right handed, i tend to shoot high and left.  The tighter the focus on the the center of a center, the better the secondary vision can give a clear signal to the brain.  When the eyes are jumping around, so does the visual information.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: slowbowjoe on April 08, 2019, 09:17:22 PM
 "You should be focused on the spot you want to hit, with the arrow or the arrow point in your out of focus peripheral vision.  If your focus shifts to the arrow or the arrow point, you should let down and start again."
 - McDave's words from another post on this page explain, very well, my experience as I shoot what I believe would be called split vision. I definitely use the arrow to aim; I see most of the saft easily in my peripheral vision... but if I try to actually see the point, I lose my visual hold on the spot, and the  shot's blown. And I let down if I notice that.
 Instinct for elevation comes with practice; I do a lot of stump shooting, which helps a lot with the learning.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: pavan on April 09, 2019, 12:35:40 PM
Split vision aiming, for most people, is not something that you can just jump into.  It takes practice and conditioning to be able to control your focus and do it in a timely fashion that can meld into ones shooting, without forcing it.  Hill explained how to practice it.  Secondary aiming over time gets to be second nature, until lines from instinctive to a hard aim get blurred at closer ranges.  For most hunters that keep their shots under 30 yards, the good ole bore a hole through it with the addition of a general acknowledgement of the arrow/bow/knuckle in the shot visual will be good enough.  One does not need to get his eyeball right on the shaft to get a pretty good idea of where it is pointing.  Seems like people are always looking for the guaranteed simple 5 step approach, I guess to overcome the human element.  Care must be taken to not get into the 'Much Ado About Nothing' tangle.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: pavan on April 15, 2019, 05:56:26 PM
Two simple bits of history, Hill was left eye dominant, he at one time in his target years used the point of aim method.  That is a peg or object on the ground where the point of the arrow is positioned that would put the arrow in the bull's eye from an exact set shooting position.   Mechanical split aiming would be to keep one's eye on the center of the the target while the arrow is placed on that pin or aiming object on the ground.  Maybe acknowledging a secondary aim gave his non-dominant eye something to do so his dominant eye would not take over the shot.  I do not have a dominant eye and shoot left and right handed, a simple glance at the arrow for me can get the off side eye trying to take over the shot, it has a better perspective at the arrow. These are my test arrows from 24 yards, they vary from 475 grains to 605 and grains with various spines and point weights.  Shot from my duo shooter Sunset Hill 55@26 B50 string, my attempt was to aim them all and shoot them all the exact same as I could without fudging for arrow weight.  We found it interesting that group after group the bow did not show any preference that i could see when shooting.  I was sitting and using a bright red ball as the secondary point of aim for every shot.  The goal is the same for all new bows, just to see which arrow the bow likes best, not to prove how good i can group arrows using the point of aim method.  When aiming and shooting until I no longer need the ball and I am in full speed tempo, 1.5 seconds from beginning of draw to release, is it mechanical or is it instinctive?  Or is it informed instinctive?  The photo is mechanical in all regards including long holding times, with matched arrows I find I am about the same at standard longbow tempo without aggressive aiming, but I do need to remember to actively push my bow hand palm at the target and where i intend to hit it.  (https://i.imgur.com/FwFGF6K.jpg?1)
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Friend on April 24, 2019, 04:15:57 AM
May have been incorrectly identifying my own aiming system as split vision. I have trained many others that have picked it up quite successfully in a very short time.

I see the point when initially establishing the horizontal alignment.

I utilize two engrained windows, in my periphery, between the target and the shadow-like periphery view of the arrow.

I stay focused on the target

Seeing in my periphery the arrow as a dark shadow image

I only assess, in my periphery, the window of light depth between the target and the arrow shadow image

The windows are set as if opening or closing a window shade.

A ½” window is for 15 yards and in…Note: the ½” window designation is actually not a ½” window , but close enough that I have it engrained. Note: the arrow tip could be pointed in the dirt yet, I don’t see it.

A ¼” window for 20 yards

25 yards is my point-on

Beyond 25 yards, I stack

My partner uses the same method and has taken a 2nd, a 3rd and last year, a 1st in the World’s Bowhunter Class. Actually, I taught him the method years ago. The only difference in our methods is that his point-on is 30 yards and his greater skill level permits him to use three windows. I find it personally to be a much less stressful aiming technique. I am actually more accurate using point-of-aim however. I will become stressed and my accuracy starts to deteriorate in short order. Also, this technique has been, by far, my most successful and consistent technique in the field. As being restricted to ground while hunting, I am often unable to see my broadhead, at full draw while in a blind. I can easily view the site window between the target and dark shadow image of the arrow.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: jackdaw on June 10, 2019, 11:22:05 PM
100% what Sam McMichael and Dave said..!! When slow-drawing...I am maybe 30% focusing on the shaft closest to me. Making any "windage" correction as I go. By the time I hit my anchor, my 70% concentration on the intended point of impact takes over and burns a hole. I release at immediate anchor.Its one fluid motion. Its also a learned skill..After firing many thousands of arrows, I became increasingly aware of the arrowshaft in my peripheral vision. So I decided to use it to some degree as a windage alignment. Perhaps 70/30..or 80/20..who knows.? But its very effective for the instinctive shooter. I NEVER look at the point...no need to. JMO......Jackdaw
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Wolftrail on June 11, 2019, 11:04:52 AM
Quote from Pavan,   "just to see which arrow the bow likes best"  That does help me with my grouping no doubt.  Some bowyers keep using the same arrows with various bows and wonder why their groupings are all over the map.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Terry Green on September 16, 2019, 08:24:08 AM
I pre aim all my shots.  I bring the bow and arrow to my line of sight. That's the reason I am on target at anchor. HH did the same.  Some folks really never can understand Instinctive shooting, nor will even admit that it exists. Moslty because those that can't do it think no one else can either.

My mental make up doesn't work for me and the gap method, but i don't down play others that have that mental make up.

Be careful accepting broad brush stokes, they can severely limit your abilities.
 
Don't let anyone steer you away from your desires in your original post....after all they are yours, you own them....now figure out how to get them.

Check your email.  :campfire:

Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Skates 2 on September 16, 2019, 09:03:46 AM
Most of the guys I hunt with, from all over shoot instinctive.  They are all good to great shots and their freezers are always full.  They are always in the woods, and not in camp talking about target panic.  :biglaugh:
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: jackdaw on September 16, 2019, 09:49:43 AM
Right on Skates...paralysis through analysis is a real thing. Sometimes "grip it and rip it" works best. It does for me...dont overthink it...
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: pavan on September 16, 2019, 03:54:22 PM
Shooting point on is split image aiming, for me, my bows and my arrows that varies from 52 to 58 yards.  Not enough to make much difference 40 yards and under.  In hunting shots  30 yards and under, trying to do all of that math creates too much second guessing for me.  Whether we shoot instinctive or try to use a mechanical aim, focus control is more important, those last 5 or 6 inches of draw along with focus on the center of a center spot will give the on board computer a snap shot if the aim was good or bad.  If the shot dropped way low or went way high, that second shot will have information to work with automatically as long as the focus control was working at release with the first shot.  After a while that consistency makes most shots more of an automatic response, some call it instinctive.  Good fluid instinctive shooting is a tighter process than many think it is, while over analyzed mechanical shooting is a lot looser process than many want it to be, especially with hunting shots.  Some people's hunting world is shooting at a deer by a feeder and shooting from a blind, mine is never that predictable.  Most years the first shot i take at a passing dove, I can hardly believe how far back the arrow flew, they are a lot easier to hit when they are landed or about to land. This year i started out shooting at passing doves with a sling shot with white marbles.  i took one shot with a bow the other day and actually shot a foot in front of a passing dove at about 40 yards, things are looking up, one day a may hit  one.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: GCook on September 16, 2019, 11:16:23 PM
I pre aim all my shots.  I bring the bow and arrow to my line of sight. That's the reason I am on target at anchor. HH did the same.  Some folks really never can understand Instinctive shooting, nor will even admit that it exists. Moslty because those that can't do it think no one else can either.

My mental make up doesn't work for me and the gap method, but i don't down play others that have that mental make up.

Be careful accepting broad brush stokes, they can severely limit your abilities.
 
Don't let anyone steer you away from your desires in your original post....after all they are yours, you own them....now figure out how to get them.

Check your email.  :campfire:
I agree with that.  I've said it on other forums and gotten plenty of flack for it. 
Then again I don't have to be "point on at 45 yards" or whatever that even means.
I just need to be close and put and arrow on that one hair. 
I'm sure my brain is doing a lot of internal calculations when I'm drawing on my target.   
I like the close game traditional archery is for me.  I don't see my aiming style/ process as limiting.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Madre Man on September 17, 2019, 08:59:58 AM
Ha! Yeah skates, and all those flack givers arguing over aiming methods don't ever seem to visit the skinning poll. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Anyone looking for no nonsense form info, check out the Form Clock thread, there's a damn good reason why its stickied at the top.  :readit:
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: mgator2001 on June 17, 2020, 02:32:32 PM
Thank you for pointing out the information about the form clock. I was struggling and that helped me out a bunch.
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Gil Verwey on June 21, 2020, 08:58:30 PM
Bob Wesley was friends with Howard Hill and shot with him. He taught Howard's style of indirect aiming.

The first thing he did when I was with him was to establish my gap at each yardage. You need a reference point to start with. He had a large round Olympic style target with the different rings. He had me intentionally use the arrow to line it up with the bottom ring at 10 yards. I shot a group of arrows and we measured the distance from the center of the group to the aiming point on the bottom ring. We did this out to 40 yards (I think). We wrote down each of these measurements.

If you ever get one of his videos you will see that he even had round white plywood circles he would stand up and place where his gap was and would line up his arrow to that to shoot. He didn't need to do that but at first it is something someone new to it might use to start to get used to it. It becomes as though you think you do not even see the arrow, but you do with your secondary vision.

Once you know what the gaps are at different yardages, you groove them in so they are second nature and become instinctive. You don't realize you are even doing it.

Look for Bob Wesley's book or video. It will be very enlightening and helpful.

Gil
Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: Stagmitis on November 24, 2020, 04:46:26 PM
Arne

PS. "pre-aiming" ??   As in before you start the draw?  Do you aim a gun precisely, then get a cartridge out of your pocket, place it in the chamber, etc. all the while holding a careful aim????  I submit that the bow isn't aimed until at full draw. No sense in aiming until you are loaded and ready to shoot.

PPS. Good luck!!

Moebow I respecptfully disagree.

With split vision and a swing draw aiming "Begins" the moment the arrow comes into the archers peripheral vison. At first alignment to the target occurs folllowed by the proper gap for distance. If its slow and deliberate fine tuning occurs at anchor before realease. If fast such as shooting at aerial or moving game then the very moment the gap is set the arrow is released. Both can be just as accurate with practice.

Title: Re: split vision training methods
Post by: BillyfromSuperior on December 21, 2020, 06:13:06 PM
You already use split vision, weather you, admit/realize, it.
That's how you adjust for distance with out thinking out loud.

I shoot "split vision", but when I'm close, like 10 yard and in,
I use the arrow more than say at 30 yards. Its like a Zen thing?
Good topic.