Trad Gang

State Trad Bowhunting Orgs => WISCONSIN - Wisconsin Traditional Archers => Topic started by: MAT on January 19, 2016, 02:45:00 PM

Title: Airbow, the next step in bow evolution?
Post by: MAT on January 19, 2016, 02:45:00 PM

To quote the manufacture:

"Pioneer Airbow by Crosman is a revolution of traditional archery equipment"

“This is an entirely new category of weapon that broadens opportunities for hunters while also renewing opportunities for those who may have left the sport because they are physically unable to draw a compound bow or cock a crossbow,”

Sound familiar?  I think we need to get in front of this and make sure it doesn’t end up being defined as a crossbow by the DNR.
Title: Re: Airbow, the next step in bow evolution?
Post by: Steve D on January 19, 2016, 11:49:00 PM
Bowhunting season here has tanked for many of us awhile back.
If it happens  just another hi tech nail in the bowhunting coffin.
Nothing surprises me any more with the current "anything goes",
increase license sales attitude that permeates  with the legislature.
Title: Re: Airbow, the next step in bow evolution?
Post by: RGKulas on January 20, 2016, 08:17:00 AM
Nothing to worry about here. Its a muzzleloading firearm. Its not a bow. It has no limbs, no string, no draw cycle. As such it would not be legal in WI under the authority of either an archery deer license nor a crossbow license. If I invent a flame throwing motorcycle but call it a "bow", that does not make it a legal bow for hunting in WI.

FYI, this is nothing new and variations of this have been around for many years without risk to the WI archery deer season.  

There are other weapons that more closely resemble an actual bow and arrow that can't get authorization for use within the WI archery or crossbow season so this one has no chance of being included.

The weapon below (which actually resembles a modern bow) is not legal in WI and it has a better chance of being included that the muzzle loading device that spawned this thread.        

If this weapon can't get approval for use in the WI archery deer or crossbow season, (per my conversations with the DNR's Kevin Wallenfang back in 2012) I don't think there is any reason to worry about this new arrow gun.

Are you concerned about this?  

Or this?  

Just because these items are in existence does not mean that they are or will ever be legal in the WI archery deer season.
Title: Re: Airbow, the next step in bow evolution?
Post by: MAT on January 20, 2016, 01:17:00 PM
A crossbow is defined in Wi regs as:

  Crossbows must have a minimum draw of 100 pounds, a working safety and use at least
14-inch long bolts or arrows equipped with broadheads as described above

That's the only definition, no mention of a bow or limbs of any type.  Therefor a spear gun with a 100# rubber band could be considered a crossbow.  Or this thing if it had an airspring.

If you look on their website they are pushing every state to legalize it in the crossbow season.  Since we have one now what's to stop anyone from modifying the definition, or make a speargun that fires an 14" long arrow?

It would be a shame to think this has no possibility of legalization as we once thought of crossbows.
Title: Re: Airbow, the next step in bow evolution?
Post by: RGKulas on January 20, 2016, 02:36:00 PM
You are of course incorrect. That is most certainly NOT the only definition. You made the mistake of taking a snipit out of the hunting regs document when it would have been more proper to actually seek out the statutory definition of a crossbow since its that statutory definition that drives the regulations. The actual definitions do exist in the hunting regs but you failed to post them.

You will want to look to WI state statute 29.000 and more specifically the definition therein. If you look to 17, you will see the following as the legal description of a  “Bow”. It states

(17) "Bow," when used with reference to hunting, means a bow, drawn and held by and through the effort of the person releasing it, but does not include a crossbow.

If you look further you will see the crossbow definition under 19 which states

 (19m) "Crossbow" means any device using a bow that, once drawn, is held solely by means other than the effort of the person firing it.

Ergo, in order to be considered a legal crossbow, a device must contain a bow (limbs, string, draw cycle, etc). When I entered into this discussion with the DNR and its legal counsel, it was explained pretty clearly. Air rifles are not allowed for hunting deer.

In order for any of the hybrid weapons I listed in my prior post to be included as legal hunting weapons, a few things would have to happen.

1.   The state would have to create a new classification of weapon as the air powered muzzle loading firearm you are concerned with is not a legal weapon.
2.   Statute would need to be created authorizing the use of said weapon in the appropriate season. (in this case it would be a firearms season)

Since the weapon in question is an air rifle one must look to the states definition of such. That definition states:

“Rifle means a firearm or airgun designed to be fired from the shoulder by the energy of an explosive propellant or compressed air used to fire a single projectile through a rifled or smooth barrel for
each pull of the trigger.”

The muzzle loading weapon in question propels a “projectile” (in this case an arrow) I fail to see (based on the legal definition provided by the state) how it could be included in either the archery deer season or the crossbow season.

As to your assertion: “It would be a shame to think this has no possibility of legalization as we once thought of crossbows.”

Crossbows were already a legal weapon in WI (and for some time). I hope you were not surprised by this. But since a crossbow is not archery gear they were separated in definition, license and season from archery deer hunting hence WI has an archery deer license and season and a crossbow deer license and season. (im not sure who you apply “we” to) but those people are ill informed.

It would be a struggle for this weapon to gain classification in WI for any species. Legislation would need to be created just to classify it for taking game.

We have a lot of things to worry about in regards to bowhunting in WI but this weapon is not one of them.
Title: Re: Airbow, the next step in bow evolution?
Post by: MAT on January 21, 2016, 01:39:00 PM
Thanks Ron.  But I am still concerned as the definition of a bow (or xbow) in statute is exactly as you listed above. There’s no mention of strings or limbs.  Also what a DNR staffer said in the past is irrelevant.  You of all people should know that rules are subject to interpretation, and all the DNR has to do is interpret a device such as this as a xbow (this doesn’t now but a spear gun might).  If these type of arrow launching systems have been around for years one would think that those who worked closely with the legislature to create a crossbow season would have wanted some changes to the definition to make damn sure they won’t be able to slip in on a technicality.  Perhaps this additional language would have helped:  A bow consists of flexible limbs used to store energy when drawn which is delivered by one or more strings to propel a single arrow forward at a time.  

But perhaps that’s irrelevant as the manufacture says the intend to lobby for this airbow to be included in the crossbow season HERE. The question is who is going to make sure they are not successful?  Are we just going to rely on wishful thinking as you suggest?  We lost the fight against xbows easily enough, all it takes is one legislator and one line in an unrelated bill and *poof*, it’s legal.  Surely some organization will support it claiming xbows are too heavy and difficult for old guys and kids to shoot, and by golly we need to bring more people into the sport.

My only reason for posting was to inform WTA members in hope they would go on record opposing this contraption before it’s too late.
Title: Re: Airbow, the next step in bow evolution?
Post by: RGKulas on January 21, 2016, 02:52:00 PM
There are 100 things bowhunters have to worry about. This is not one of them. You can fret over this if you like. I can't stop that.

As far as WTA going on record of opposing it. That's fine. That record and $1 will get you a cup of coffee. (I don't drink coffee so Im only guessing a cup of coffee costs a dollar). I see no reason WTA should not oppose this weapon being included in the WI archery deer season. That's all well and good. There is a laundry list of things WTA can line up to oppose.

Then what? What does that opposition look like? How it is made known, acted upon, validated, valued?  And by whom? Or is this opposition just ceremonial in nature?

If this muzzle loading air rifle becomes legal for use within the WI crossbow or archery deer season in my lifetime, I will eat my hat. We are more likely to be invaded by an alien life force.
Title: Re: Airbow, the next step in bow evolution?
Post by: MAT on January 29, 2016, 02:16:00 PM
Sorry you missed my point.  That was while this does not meet the definition something else could.  The worry about x-bows was that while they were heavy and unwieldy they haven’t even been that refined yet.   So therefore the definition should be as tight as possible or else technology will take over and you’ll have something the looks and carries like a gun and can shoot faster than a bow, but apparently that was not on the mind of those working tirelessly to make them legal for everyone during the deer season.

Also to point out again the manufacture said they were going to lobby to make them legal, I presume by definition or just by inclusion.  If I remember correctly the 65 and over X-bow provision was snuck into a bill and passed before anyone knew better.  

To quote Winston Churchill:  Want of foresight, unwillingness to act when action would be simple and effective, lack of clear thinking, confusion of counsel until the emergency comes, until self-preservation strikes its jarring gong–these are the features which constitute the endless repetition of history.
Title: Re: Airbow, the next step in bow evolution?
Post by: RGKulas on February 03, 2016, 10:44:00 AM
Bowhunters in Wisconsin have about as much to worry about that muzzleoading air rifle as the PGA has to worry about this device.