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Topic Archives => Shooting => Topic started by: Roger Norris on April 18, 2006, 07:57:00 PM

Title: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 18, 2006, 07:57:00 PM
Lately I have been shooting quite a bit at 40 yards +...actually a measured 43 yards. It seems to be a pretty good lesson. I started out shooting at an orange dot on the face of a 5X5 black backstop. Not only does it point out the weak spots in your form, it sure is fun to watch the arrows fly all that distance. Tonight, I placed a Mckenzie in front of the backstop....it taught me that a good group at 40 yards can still be an ugly gut shot on an animal. I suggest everyone try it. Heck, where else can you be proud of a 6" group!!  :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: joe skipp on April 18, 2006, 08:04:00 PM
I agree Roger. I constantly practice out to 40 concentrating on small objects. It helps me prepare for chasing Mulies around the Wyoming prarie but it also improves my close range shots.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: J.W. on April 18, 2006, 09:47:00 PM
I love practicing at longer ranges! Granted I pretty much suck it up from that distance, but, like you said, "it sure is fun to watch'em fly that far." Plus I get lucky every once in a while and get a good shot in.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Chortdraw on April 18, 2006, 10:17:00 PM
We old farts get together in the morning in the summer and shoot our 3-d course at the range,after coffee,of course. We shoot shoots from 15-75 yards. You are right when you said it is fun to watch the flight of the arrow. Amazing how many times we get good shots on the 74 yd buffalo. Course it don't take much to amuse us!!

Chort
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: denny on April 18, 2006, 10:51:00 PM
I have a decent 3-d herd down in the woods (6) and I keep two burlap bags strung between trees 40 yards apart, they are my simulated elk and I pound on em every evening with a few shots at the deer in between.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: ncboman on April 19, 2006, 12:47:00 AM
I need to break my compound out to post to this thread.  :D  

  :saywhat:
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: wifishkiller on April 19, 2006, 01:02:00 AM
right on love shooting far
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Rich Baker on April 19, 2006, 02:30:00 AM
Ive been doing the same thing at 60 yards. it makes 40 seam easy LOL
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 19, 2006, 07:39:00 AM
We have spent many afternoons in the sandunes in northern Michigan launching arrows at 100 yards or more at a gallon milk jug. My kids call it "playing Braveheart"...
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Dave Worden on April 19, 2006, 07:52:00 AM
Just lost an arrow last night shooting at 90 meters.  Except for the lost arrow, it was a ball.  You guys should consider joining a Field and Hunter league if you have the chance.  The targets are 7 to 80 yards.  Yardages are marked, but shooting instinctive (or even gap shooting) knowing the exact range isn't that much of an advantage.  Lots of fun and as mentioned above, it sure points out form errors.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: northern fisher on April 19, 2006, 08:02:00 AM
Ilove to take those 50-60 yd shots when i'm out stumpshooting.It is a humbling thing and we get a lotta laughes trying to sneak arrows between trees only 8" apart.I think I'm responsable for more fallen timber than some lumberjacks out there.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: swampbuck on April 19, 2006, 08:35:00 AM
I leave a milk jug sittin against a dirt pile 50 yrds away from my driveway just so I got somethin to shoot at when ever I get the itch LOL One of these days I gotta sift that dirt pile   :knothead:
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Pete W on April 19, 2006, 09:57:00 AM
At these distances you can realy see if you have good arrow flight.!
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Voodoofire1 on April 19, 2006, 10:21:00 AM
I love shooting long distances!!,do it every day,but I'm lucky to just hit the target,lol,lol but I'm getting better,try it with bareshafts sometime,it'll really let you know what's going on with your form and arrow flight.......STEVE
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: John Nail on April 19, 2006, 10:31:00 AM
Fellas, last Janurary, I went to NM for Mule deer. There were some guys practicing with their compounds out to 100 yards. They shoot deer that far. One fellow could keep an 8" group. They left me in the dust at about 45 yards. I was very impressed.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on April 19, 2006, 05:20:00 PM
It occures to me to ask why we dont shoot at longer distances more often? many folks are hunting at 25 yeards max if that. back in the day an englishman could nail the plate to a french knight or slip and arrow into his armpit at 200 plus yards. what have we lost?

In the SCA we have whats called a Royal round which is basicaly and end of 6 arrows at 20 30 and 40 yards. and some folks can hit the gold regularly at 40 yards with no problem. me I can sometimes hit the target at that range. mostly I miss.

I am sure we could work out to longer ranges accurately and if we far enough away that the deer wont jump our string then cool

I know my 55 lb recurve has the punch with a 550 grain arrow to do the job so why not shoot that far till you can do it first shot?
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 19, 2006, 05:29:00 PM
I can only justify taking a hunting shot at about 25 yards. Beyond that, it isn't a sure thing. I shoot pretty well at 30 yards, but I miss enough not to feel qualified to hunt that far. I'm sure some guys can hunt at 40 yards....BUT....I strongly feel that beyond 25 yards, in a hunting situation, too many things can happen. 1/2 a step by the deer upon your release can turn a kill shot into a gut shot at that range.

The guys shooting at Muley's with a compound at 100 yards? Sorry. They are missing the point. They should stick to the rifle season. At the risk of sounding judgemental, I would call that unethical.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Legolas on April 19, 2006, 05:56:00 PM
Shooting over 30 yards just felt wrong. I did not have the instinctive feel and it was a hail Mary. Then I thought  " why not aim at a spot that was say as many inches above the target as my arrows were hitting low when I aimed like it was 20 yards?  I mean really aim the same dang way as when I hold on a 20 yard shot.  Forget about the spot you want to hit and just burn a hole at the new spot.

This was a mental break through for me.

I was worried about the gap and felt so out of place shooting gap but not any good at it.

What do you think?

Leg
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: StanM on April 19, 2006, 06:20:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Roger Norris:
We have spent many afternoons in the sandunes in northern Michigan launching arrows at 100 yards or more at a gallon milk jug. My kids call it "playing Braveheart"...
That's funny Roger, we do the same thing in my archery class and the students also call it "playing Braveheart".  We shoot at gunny sacks stuffed with plastic, though.  I find it amazing how accurate you can get shooting at something that is roughly 3' x 4' at distances around 100 yards.

Stan
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 19, 2006, 07:11:00 PM
Stan - the accuracy is amazing isn't it? No way would I stand 100 yards downrange of my kids!
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 20, 2006, 10:42:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Roger Norris:

At the risk of sounding judgemental, I would call that unethical.
No offense intended, but I don't understand that comment.....

What is unethical about taking a shot that you can accurately and reliably make?
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 21, 2006, 08:17:00 AM
Jason - I would call it unethical because a 100 yard bow shot, on live game, cannot be "reliably" made. At 100 yards, so many things can happen with the wind, the animal taking 1/2 a step, etc....animals aren't targets.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Bowhunter4life on April 21, 2006, 08:29:00 AM
40 yards is "doable" with trad gear.  Myself and the way I set up my bows my point on is right at 40 yards, makes it nice to "hang" with my compound shooting friends, but I wouldn't shoot at a critter at that distance.

As far as 100 yard shots at NM Mule deer, not necessary if you actually do some hunting and get close.

23 yard shot with a 50 yard recovery, steep quartering away shot in his right side behind the ribs and out just behind his left shoulder...

  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/Bowhunter4life/jdeer3.jpg)
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 21, 2006, 06:38:00 PM
Nice job! Nothing like a clean kill. Yep, I believe that the folks who claim they "need" to take long shots at game are just making an excuse for lack of stalking skills.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JEFF B on April 21, 2006, 07:11:00 PM
hi  guys  over here  we shoot from 5 to 50 yards
and every now and then do a round of ifaa to bring your self back on form. it sorts the men from the boys. but hey it is good fun. and when i go hunting i dont shoot anyting over  25 yards.like a mate of mine who shoots a compound shoots  game at 60 to 70 yards. then turns to me and says why do you stalk the deer to within 25 yards. and i just say you just said it stalk. it is all about skill and fun.  :thumbsup:    :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 23, 2006, 01:25:00 AM
I understand the concept:  longer distance: greater time from release to impact: more time for the animal to move....  but deer jump the string, the wind blows, unseen underbrush deflects the arrow.  Any number of factors can cause even a "slam dunk" shot to go south.  I guess I'm just overly sensitive to the word "unethical" - if I could make a 100 yard shot reliably, I'd do it in the right situation... I can't, and don't... but I wouldn't fault anyone else for it.  I agree, "getting close" is part of the challenge - and the reward - but I don't see distance in and of itself dictating ethics.

Sorry, I really am not trying to be a putz - and hope not to offend - just clarifying....
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 23, 2006, 08:35:00 AM
Jason - I have a hard time declaring "ethics violation" on another mans actions. Ethics are personal. The adage of ethics being defined by your actions when nobody is around makes sense to me.

However, a few things are pretty plain to me. And taking a shot that has more risk that probability of success is plainly unethical. No, the measurement of 100 yards is not unethical. It's all of the things that can happen to an arrow in that 100 yards that make shooting at big game at that distance unethical.

Which brings me to the other 1/2 of personal ethics, not limited to the game fields...if I see another person, behaving in a manner that should be corrected, I have no problem giving them my opinion on the matter. Why? Well in this case, the probability of 100 yard shots producing wounded deer is pretty high. And wounded deer running around with arrows sticking out of their rumps makes you and I, as bowhunters, look bad. Therefore we have a right..and I believe a responsibility...to ask others to consider the ethics of such a shot.

There have been many threads deriding the "Ethics Police". For the most part, I agree. We should mind our own business. But not always.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: dgf41 on April 23, 2006, 01:42:00 PM
Love shooting the longer distances. I have shot 3-D shoots from compound stakes and done well most trad stakes are a little close for practicle shooting. Hard to get ten to twelve yards from a groundhog or turkey. There are few better sights then hitting the kill zone on a target 30 plus yards consitently
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 24, 2006, 11:52:00 AM
My dad shared a camp with 4 compound hunters his last trip for mulies.  They were hunting pronghorn (the reservation had been alotted 6 permits for the year, so they booked 6 to bowhunters and 6 to gun hunters - since they knew the shots were 75+yds at best and they "knew" the bowhunters would strike out  :rolleyes:  ) - these guys routinely practiced for those shots, they ranged all of their shots and had sight pins set up for those distances, and were extremely accurate - they worked hard to be sure that they stayed accurate....  they went 4 for 4 - all clean shots and quick recovery..

I know that's just anecdotal - but I just can't see calling those guys - who worked very hard to become/stay as proficient as they were, and who obviously chose their shots carefully -  "unethical".  
We can debate their equipment choice, but I can't see questioning their "ethics" just because of the distance - they were probably more effective at those ranges than many guys are at 20+ yards.....

Don't mean to stir the pot too much - I'm probably just overly-sensitive about questioning another hunter's "ethics"....  

But I also agree wholeheartedly: if you think its wrong its your duty to speak up and say so...
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 24, 2006, 01:13:00 PM
Why couldn't they get closer than 75 yards?
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 25, 2006, 09:30:00 AM
Haven't hunted them, but from what I read and hear, you're just not going to get that close to a pronghorn - unless you want to sit next to a well/water trough, etc - but that kind of hunting isn't for everyone either.

But that's not really the point...

My point is that we all choose our own challenges - we choose to challenge ourselves with our equipment by limiting the technology and getting as close as we can - those guys chose to challenge themselves by maxing the capabilities of their equipment and the effective range.  They could have much more easily used a rifle - but so could we.

I can easily see someone telling me using a longbow is unethical, for similar reasoning - so I guess I feel like I need to defend them for their choice, and hope that they'd defend me for mine.....
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 25, 2006, 10:01:00 AM
I have to respectfully disagree, Jason. To me, your first paragraph perfectly describes the point. I find it unethical if someone chooses to use a bow, when they themselves define that a bow may not be the correct weapon for the task. Stretching a bow to the limits you describe is akin to stretching a rifle....by comparison, we are saying a 750 to 1000 yard rifle shot is ok, if I have my ratios right.

If they are unable or unwilling to get closer, they should not use a bow. A friend and I are kicking around the idea of a pronghorn hunt in 07. Yep, we will be sitting around water, trying for a 20 yard shot. Stalking would be an option, but from what I hear...near impossible with any bow. So we will adhere to the limitations of our chosen equipment...or use a rifle.

I'm sorry Jason, but nobody will ever convince me that it is ethical to shoot an arrow at game beyond 40 yards. Even if a persons skill is up to the task, too many things can happen, as we discussed earlier.

Oddly enough, and this may be hypocritical of me, I really don't have a problem with a guy launching arrows long distance at things like prarie dogs or woodchucks.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 25, 2006, 04:20:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Roger Norris:
 I find it unethical if someone chooses to use a bow, when they themselves define that a bow may not be the correct weapon for the task.  
Absolutely - and I think this is the crux of the arguement for or against.  But the key is whether the  individual  feels it is the right or wrong weapon.  
I'd agree completely if the 100yd shooter felt that he wasn't up to the task - but if he believes that he is capable of reliably and cleanly taking an animal, then its not unethical - even if he's wrong...
its the motivation behind an action that dictates the ethics, not the action itself.
In the case of the 4 pronghorn hunters, they happened to be right - they were capable - but its the fact that they belived it was an acceptable weapon at that distance that makes me want to defend their decision


Ignore the extreme distance (and I do agree, I can't ever see myself bow hunting at that distance):
Lets say I thought I was effective out to 40 yards - I practiced, I was consistent - deer season rolls around and I shoot a deer at 30 yards - too far back, lose the blood trail, and never recover the deer, even after searching for 3 days....
Scenario #2 - I know I really shouldn't shoot past 20 yards, but I have deer standing at what I know is 30 yards - I decide to take a chance anyway, and end up with a gut shot....

Same distance, same result, but I'd say #2 was not an ethical decision, while #1 was.....

Not trying to change your mind, and I don't mean to beat the point to death, but I do think its an important distinction.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 25, 2006, 05:03:00 PM
Jason - I can't disagree with anything you typed in your last post, especially the distinction "then it's not unethical, even if he's wrong"....thats a great point.

I will say this, however...and I'm not talking about your Dad's friends, nobody in particular...there IS a difference between a shot at 30 yards vs 100 yards. The 30 yard shot can be trained for, with a reasonable expectation of success. The 100 yard shot has factors to contend with beyond the shooters control (wind, animal movement,mirage, etc). I contend that it is beyond the ethical use of a bow, therefore, good training and good intentions are superceded by the misapplication of the equipment...and theres the thing. Why misapply the equipment? The tag is cheaper? Ego? Bragging rights? To me, THAT's where the ethics factor comes in, in this scenario.

By the way, your last post was excellent, and I had to think pretty hard to maintain my side of the argument. I don't mind you trying to change my mind, and your not beating anything to death. If someone is going to cry "ethics", they should be able to think it through against all angles. I appreciate the converstaion.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JC on April 26, 2006, 09:07:00 AM
So far, I must say, excellent points by both you gentlemen. Nice to see, once again, why this site continues to grow....respect never dampens healthy, intelligent debate.

I have to also say that I am firmly of the conviction that a shot at a big game animal with anything shooting a projectile slower than the speed of sound, past the 50-60 yard mark is unethical...no matter who the shooter is. Can it be done, sometimes at will by certain people? Yes, but that doesn't make it right. To me, there is simply too much that can happen, to many unknowns, in the time the arrow is launched (purely because of the distance) that cannot be trained for, accounted for, or compensated for....the odds are against a clean kll before the archer even releases the arrow.

I don't want to sound pompous or holier than thou by saying this but....I have been taught, it's not that if you believe something is right or wrong that makes it so....Hitler believed extermination of an entire society was right. I know that's an extreme point but there has to be a definative line drawn at some point. It is up to each man to decide where that line is, but it is also up to each man to stand up when he sees that line is crossed.

I probably wouldn't holler and scream at fellers that make such long shots successfully, but I personally wouldn't want to hunt with them because their idea of ethical and mine don't match. I certainly would raise a fuss if they consistently messed up those shots...or weren't remotely qualified to take those shots (can they hit a coke can at that distance consistently?), etc.

And like Roger, I admit what some folks consider hipocrisy: I don't mind taking long shots at gophers or rabbits under certain conditions...and I consider a ham shot, by the right shooter/equipment, an effective shot on a hog.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 26, 2006, 09:09:00 AM
Yeah, you've gotta wonder how they decided to train for 100 yd shots (and why)- I guess its just the natural progression when compound shooters are taking longer and longer shots - from what I hear/read its not really that uncommon for compound shooters to take 50 or 60 yard shots...

I walked off 100 yds last night and imagined shooting a bow at that distance - thats a looooooong shot.....
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JC on April 26, 2006, 09:22:00 AM
Jason, yep, killed quite a few deer with my compound out to 50...and a few even further. A feller tends to get kinda cocky when you can consistently tee off a golf ball at 40....that is, until a few agonizing and unproductive blood trails break you of it. Lord knows what kinda crazy shots I would have taken if they had afforable accurate laser range finders back when I shot wheels. At one time, my thoughts were "if I can hold a pin on it, I can hit it."   "[dntthnk]"
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JC on April 26, 2006, 11:40:00 AM
After further contemplation, I should also probably add that there is a consideration of scale in my justifications. 40 yards is not too long to shoot at an elk....or a moose or other very large ungulate where the kill zone size, and speed at which they move their large mass, are proportional to a whitetail at considerably shorter range. And vice versa....the size of the projectile in comparison to the small game's size and larger "kill zone" (head, CNS, and heart/lung area) means that even a hit slightly off the mark has a high likely hood of incapacitating it.

There are obviously situational ethics involved from time to time too....a deer looking right at you on full alert at 20 yards is not nearly as "right" a shot as the same animal unaware and bedded at 30.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: albertakid on April 26, 2006, 11:49:00 AM
JC,

You are welcome in my camp anytime you just described my exact thoughts on bowhunting. I generally don't jump into threads like this, but if you have the commitment and desire to tune and learn to shoot your equipment 17.5 yards seems pretty silly.

Jordan
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 27, 2006, 10:23:00 AM
I should probably clarify:  I'm not defending, and certainly not advocating 100 yd shots - I've never personally met anyone who could do it reliably.  
I'm just concerned about the determination of another hunter's "ethics"  - its just not as simple as an arbitrary distance.  100yds is certainly an extreme, but if a hunter can select the right situation, the right animal, the right conditions, and the right time, and reliably kill an animal at that distance, who are we to question his ethics?  
If those 4 hunters I described have never wounded/lost an animal at that distance and have killed 10 or 20, are you seriously going to say that its unethical????
If so, why??????  Because they might miss some day?  Many of the people on this site are more likely to wound an animal at their "comfortable" shooting distance, than some guys are at what seem like extreme distances... so whose ethics are in question?
I'd say neither.  Their judgement? Maybe, but not their ethics.


        -Why is it not unethical to shoot rabits, gophers, armadillos, etc at longer distances?


Not trying to ruffle any feathers - just enjoying the debate      :campfire:
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 27, 2006, 11:04:00 AM
Oh, and wrt JC's first post above (we were posting simultaneously)  it is precisely the "definitive line somehwere"  that I disagree with - we draw our own lines, based on a myriad of factors that only we are qualified to determine for ourselves.  And we constantly adjust that line for ourselves (or we should anyway) - I don't feel that I'm qualified to draw a line for someone else based on only one of those factors.  I think your note about "situational ethics" demonstrates this very well.

(and I know the Hitler comment wasn't intended to offend - but I don't think its reasonable to compare the 2)
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JC on April 27, 2006, 11:48:00 AM
Jason, yes, I'll say 100 yards with a bow is unethical. Not necessarily because of the shooter....I've seen the olympics first hand and watched some amazing target shooters do thier stuff at those distances. But those are targets, not animals. There are far too many things to go wrong in the looooong period of time it takes an arrow, even a 300+fps arrow, to travel that distance. Far too many things out of the shooter's control. For lack of a better word in my limited vocabulary, it's wreckless. I have no problem with saying it's unethical. Would I spit on the guys you talked about....the ones who have made 20 of those shots to perfection, never wounded lost animals? No, that's not my style...but I would have no problem looking them in the eye and saying I thought what they did was wrong if they ask me....and if they are crappy shots taking those shots, I'll flat out tell em even if they don't ask me. And again, I would do my best to distance myself from them...that's why I don't have a lot of compound shooting friends anymore: too many guys taking 60 yard shots, who aren't remotely qualified to do it, with flyweight arrows and expanding heads and those choices, to me, aren't bad judgement...they are wreckless.

I'm a better shot with a rifle and a compound both, no shame here...they are more accurate tools given the mechanical/technilogical advantages. Is hunting with a longbow unethical for you? I don't know...can you, with say an 85% success, hit your target in the kill zone from zero to your chosen maximum yardage? Do you diligently practice for such shots? Are you using a well designed broadhead that is appropriately sharpened? Do you always take only shots within that range? Do you pass on shots even within the range when the other conditions aren't right? If you said yes to all then my opinion, for what it's worth, is the longbow is an ethical choice for you. But then, you could just as easily be "unethical" with a rifle if you say....chose to shoot at a running deer at 300 yards with full metal jacket ammo out of a .223. In my opinion, that's unethical...it's plain wrong. It's not bad judgement, like if you feel confident out to 200 with your .308 and a deer of a lifetime steps out into the field feeding calmly at 275 and you shoot and make a bad hit.

I mentioned my point about consideration of scale...and thought I explained but maybe not well enough. It's not unethical, to me, to shoot at the smaller game at longer distances because the odds of a debilitating hit are greater than with a deer. Compared to deer, small game have more kill zones that can effectively be penetrated by an arrow. And again, comparing  their body size, the arrow is a much larger projectile, carry much more energy (relatively) than when compared to a deer sized target. If you miss by 4 inches on a deer, you might have made a bad hit. Miss by 4 inches on a rabbit and you missed clean. Also, in many areas gophers, dillers, and in even some...rabbits are all vermin. That extends my ethical range some too.

J-not feeling any feathers ruffled-C
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JC on April 27, 2006, 11:51:00 AM
My point was extreme, but here's another. You see someone kicking a dog....do you let them continue? You hear someone admitted they kicked their dog, do you say something to them about it? Or you see a friend riding his 5 year old on the back of his motorcycle without a helmet...it's legal....but is it ethical? Do you say anything?
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 27, 2006, 01:51:00 PM
Interesting point - but its still not that clear cut - if I saw my neighbor beating his dog because he's trying to teach it not to run out in the street and get run over by a car, or trying to teach it not to bite his kids, then I wouldn't consider it 'unethical' - it may not be the best method for training the dog - and I'd certainly point that out and offer to help him train the dog properly, but I wouldn't question his ethics....

Now if he's beating the dog because he enjoys inflicting pain on a living creature, then we'd probably have a bit more "heated" discussion...


Your justification for long shots on smallers animals is what I'd hoped you'd say:  more likely to either kill or miss cleanly (basically) and I agree with that -
if however, you'd said that it just doesn't bother you to wound a rabbit as much as it does to wound a deer, then I'd have to question that logic - (and I use rabbit specifically, since both are game animals so the ethical issues should be the same) - I think many people DO justify marginal shots on rabbits (for example) simply because they don't lose any sleep over losing a bunny
(and deer are considered 'vermin' by a lot of people with trashed landscape too, so that distinction isn't all that clear cut either)
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JEFFRO on April 27, 2006, 02:04:00 PM
NOW BACK TO LONG ARROW FLIGHT.   :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Chad Edgar on April 27, 2006, 02:09:00 PM
I applaud you 3, really.  Now can I play too???
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on April 27, 2006, 02:17:00 PM
JasonV, I fully agree with your posts so far.    :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JC on April 27, 2006, 03:41:00 PM
Hmmm, Tracy, you agree with his posts so far but you don't think it's okay to take chunk shots at feral hogs or deer....yet Clint thinks that the 100 yard shots on pronghorns aren't "unethical" to him....not sure what you are saying.

Chad, yes would love to have another view in here.

Jason, I don't like to wound any animal, I like a clean kill, even on rats...on that I think we both agree. There is a difference in your answer and mine though....I don't think beating a dog is right...ever. That's wrong in my book, it's torture, ie unethical. If the dog needs to be killed, kill it, but don't torture it. Letting your dog run wild in the streets is unethical behavior, the dog doesn't deserve the owners stupidity or lack of concern for his well being. Therein  lies my point about "wreckless" or unethical shots. They may be my ethics, but when I witness them being broken, I am morally bound to take action. Sometimes that action is simply to leave....when the situation does not warrant further action...sometimes it's a good ol fashioned brawl. And it wouldn't be the first time I've had my nose nocked in the dirt cause I butted in. I was taught that when you see something wrong, you don't stand there and watch it happen. By doing so, you are in essence condoning it. So leave, or step up, your choice. I've left a camp or two in my day cause someone there was clearly crossing my line of right/wrong and I was not in a position to take it up more directly...other than to tell them "I'm leaving cause I want no part of what you are doing." To me, sometimes that's enough.

Am I better than the fellow with the ethics I am questioning...nope....but I have a very clearly defined sense of right and wrong. And I ain't gonna stand there and let wrong happen in front of me. Specially when it comes to something I am very passionate about and deeply connected with such as traditional bowhunting.

Now....as Jeffro alluded to, back to long arrow flight. Maybe we should start an ethics thread on pow-wow....bet there'd be a lot of responses over there.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on April 27, 2006, 04:17:00 PM
JC, the emphasis should be put on "say or imply" not chunk.       :readit:    "Hmmm"
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 27, 2006, 07:02:00 PM
I have been gone a couple days...nice to see other folks join in the discussion. I like JC's scale of justification...I am pretty sure I can ethically put an arrow through a buffaloes ribs at 40 yards...I wouldn't try it on a whitetetail. I think the small game vs big game scenario is well explained also...an arrow most anywhere on a rabbit has the reasonable expectation of being a kill shot.

This is a complex question, more so than what is on the surface. Intention, training, equipment, all play a role in the ethical decision.

Is it safe to say that we can QUESTION the ethics of someone taking a 100 yard bow shot on big game? I capitilized question because I don't know how to do italics ;0).....I think questioning ones ethics is different than condemning ones ethics....
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 27, 2006, 07:09:00 PM
COMMON GROUND!!!!!!

Absolutely agree without reservation!

Question the ethics of the shot, be open to the explanation, and then draw your conclusions.  But be careful not to confuse poor judgement with bad ethics....
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 27, 2006, 07:35:00 PM
Oh, and for the record, not really sure how Clint would feel about the 100yd shots, though I would guess we have similar opinions  :D    
(common mistake)

Of course, sometimes he uses that Cop-logic and leaves me completely cornfuzed  :confused:
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JC on April 27, 2006, 09:01:00 PM
Excellent post Roger, wish I had said it so succinctly...
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on April 27, 2006, 09:48:00 PM
I agree Roger, well said.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 28, 2006, 09:27:00 AM
Speaking of 40 yards...I just went out back and paced off about 40 yards in a field, and then in a thick section of swamp....what a difference.

It makes me think that our distance limitations may be regionally affected, as well. I can't imagine taking a 40 yard shot in a Michigan swamp. I suppose if I lived on the prairies all my life, 40 yards wouldn't look quite as far.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JasonV on April 28, 2006, 10:27:00 AM
I grew up hunting the swamps of Michigan Roger - I know exactly what you mean - there were some spots that 40 yds with a rifle would've been tough - but I sure do miss it......
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 28, 2006, 10:38:00 AM
I made my farthest gun kill on a deer last fall. She was in an open field. I was using a scoped 870 12 gauge. It looked like a loooong way...I paced it off at 35 yards ;0)

Almost every bow kill I have ever made was 10 yards or less. I hunt a couple spots when you cannot see past 10 yards...last fall I had a good buck within 15 yards that I had no chance at. Just too thick. I like it though, I'm never forced to make an ethics decision!   :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on April 28, 2006, 11:36:00 AM
Yeah, we've got a lot of open stuff over here.  It's frustrating to be able to watch a deer at 400 yards, knowing you're not even in his stomping grounds cuz, he's just fringin.  My longest gun kill was 120ish yards.  I doubt I'll ever take another shot on an animal with my bow as my longest longbow kill.  A T-storm moved in and washed out anykind of a trail I had to follow before I could find her.  I found her too late and she'd only travelled about 35 yards through waist high crp grass.  But, rain does terrible things to tracking and CRP can be thick.  Now, if it looks like a storm is moving in, I don't hunt.  But, just like shooting over 40 yards, 30 yards or 80 yards, I'm not going to say its unethical or improper for another to hunt in the rain.  I just know that I had bad results with it and won't do it again.  I know a lot of folks are being successful in those conditions.  That's their call.

Did I say that so as to make sense this time?    :knothead:
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Roger Norris on April 28, 2006, 12:38:00 PM
LostHawg...you mention difficulty trailing a deer in the thick stuff 35 yards...Yep. Thats one of the things I DON'T like about these swamps, after the shot, once the deer bolts, usually you can't follow thier line of travel very well. I have had short, 60 yard bloodtrails that take an hour...
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: JC on April 28, 2006, 02:45:00 PM
Perfect sense Tracy   :D
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: henpeckedmuch on May 04, 2006, 12:52:00 AM
I had never shot beyound 35 yd. until I went to a Michigan shoot last week. They had a buffalo 3D target at 55yd for a novelty target. I paid my dollar for three shots as a donation. Trying to visulize the arrow trajetory I raised the bow and let loose. My first arrow struck the target about 3 in above the heart. I got so excited I gave them another 4 bucks just to see if I could do it again. I missed the target twice out of the 15 shots I took. But, none as good as the first shot. About half of the shots were in the kill zone and the rest were in the front shoulder. The wind was blowing towards the front shoulder and perhaps that had something to do with it. It did teach me one thing-- don't shoot beyound your ability at live game. For me about 25yds.
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: MikeW on May 04, 2006, 08:10:00 AM
One Trad shoot I went to had a Buffalo out there like that. I could see it walking up the trail then I saw the stake you were suppose to shoot from, I thought it was a joke or something. I had no idea how to hold on a shot that long. I lucked out and stuck it right by the elbow low. I shot again just for the heck of it and stuck it in the top of the back.

I've never scored well at a trad shoot. I always aim for where I would really shoot a live animal, which is right at the level of the elbow and an 1" to the right of it.

Why aren't the score rings there? The 10-12 ring is not where most bow hunters would shoot, why is that?

Any ways I score high in my mind cause my arrows usuall hit "my kill zone"
 :D
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: Ray Hammond on May 04, 2006, 04:10:00 PM
So it's OK to turn a bow into a black powder rifle? I don't get it. I agree completely - using this form of practice on targets is fun, builds great technique, and will really exhibit any flaw you have in your setup..but for actual hunting?- I don't know...just because you CAN do a thing doesn't always mean you SHOULD.

We choose to hinder our ability to kill a game animal and VOLUNTARILY select a SHORT range weapon -then we want to turn around and try to figure out every way possible to make it into a long range weapon. Hmmmmmm, something there just doesn't make good sense to me.(voluntarily is the operative word here, I think)

Why select the bow at all for hunting if your goal is to AVOID the very things that the style of hunting that weapon dictates - because you either lack the skill or lack the ambition to gain the skill - and you are not hunting for subsistence purposes, either?

buffalo jumps make sense, as an example- from a native or subsistence hunter point of view-  they're trying to EAT- that was a lot better way(and less likely way to get killed) to do it than getting on a horse and sidling up next to a 2000 lb rocket of muscle and bone and shooting an arrow into it! - why use a bow if your intention is to shoot game at 100 yards in this day and age, when we aren't using a bow because we HAVE to, but because we CHOOSE to?

This really shouldn't be argued from an ethics perspective ....I think Roger and Joe may have alluded to a lot of my points in this a couple pages up...and we aren't even bringing up the technical issues here, such as the compound guys you are talking about with their lighter weight arrows at 100 yards- what kind of momentum/retained energy do those things have at 100 yards...against the ribs of a MOOSE, for example????

And please don't bring up that old story about how Howard Hill used to take 100 yard shots at game...we used to do a lot of stuff we don't do any more..I like to think its because in most cases we figured out a better way to go. I've been at a great many 3 D shoots in my time- I bet I haven't met more than 3 or 4 people who could shoot as well as HH at 40 yards and under...but at 100 yards? And none of the ones I met who COULD- would ever take a 100 yard shot at an animal cause they are BOWHUNTERS!
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: albertakid on May 05, 2006, 07:21:00 PM
Well this thread needs some lighting up!!LOL So here is a pic of a 40 yard group my boy said we needed a pic of cause "dad did good" man kids crack me up.

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/albertakid/P2030126.jpg)

Jordan
Title: Re: Shooting at 40 yards
Post by: SHOOTO8S on May 05, 2006, 08:32:00 PM
Nice group and a good looking young man! Congrats on both!