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Topic Archives => Shooting => Topic started by: Double Creek on January 16, 2006, 07:27:00 AM

Title: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Double Creek on January 16, 2006, 07:27:00 AM
Help me out here folks......

I've been working on the elusive subconscience release that I hear ALL the great shooters speaking of......  However, I find that when I just totally concentrate on the spot with no thought of when to release that I won't release....  I just keep holding and holding and holding and then I start shaking......  Where am I going wrong here?  And do you have any tips on how to train yourself for that subconscience release?  

Thanks,

Joel
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: FLHunter on January 16, 2006, 09:21:00 AM
Joel,

I think the "subconscious release" is one of those things that is hard to relate and bit mis-described making it difficult to understand.

First its important to understand that we should have total control of our shot.  To be able to letdown at anytime, stopping the shot when things aren't right.  That means we need to have some consciousness of what is happening in the shot and control of our release.

What I feel most better archers mean by the "subconscious release" is that they are aware of holding the bow at fulldraw, but have their concentration directed at the intended target spot.  They   allow the release to happen    without breaking concentration on target  when everything is right.  

This means if they are going to letdown they break target concentration and direct their thoughts to a safe letdown.

Hope that makes sense?????     :confused:
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Double Creek on January 16, 2006, 09:34:00 AM
Thanks, that makes alot more sense......
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Steertalker on January 16, 2006, 04:42:00 PM
Joel,

I think an analogy for you that may be easier to understand would be the trigger pull on a firearm.

Take, for instance, a rifle.  After bringing the rifle to the proper position and the aiming process has begun, you reach a point at which the site picture is as good as it is going to get, for you, and you are satisfied with it.  That is when you begin to squeeze the trigger slowly until the gun fires, surprising you somewhat.  When squeezing the trigger slowly and smoothly, you know the gun is going to fire just not the instance when.

Now when you run your shot with your bow, coming to full draw you begin your aiming proces;  maintaining tension, holding what you've got but not moving.  After you've decided that you are satisfied with the site picture you begin increasing back tension but holding what you've got, not moving, totally immersed in the aiming process until the string is pulled from your fingers.

That's probably not the best explaination but hopefully will help.  There should not be any thought at all about the release.  When that string slips from your fingers it should surprise you.
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Starkman on January 16, 2006, 05:02:00 PM
Joel,
You may have my subconscious release...I would like to get rid of mine.  FLHunter & Steertalker pretty much nailed it on the head.
Bob
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: woodsman on January 16, 2006, 06:57:00 PM
Everybody..

     Steertalker mentions coming to full draw, aiming, maintaining tension, holding what you've got but not moving...

    This is the part I need help with, I can't seem to establish a repeatable method that works for me. It seems I'm pulling my hand off the string..

    I don't seem to have any more back tension to increase or maybe just don't know how.

    I'd sure like to hear several different methods you guys use so maybe I could find a repeatable method that would work for me.

   Can you keep it pretty simple for me...maybe break it down to a step by step process???

I appreciate it... THANKS!!!

Chris
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Todd Hathaway on January 17, 2006, 07:51:00 AM
Steertalker nailed it. You do NOT want your relese to be triggerd by a sight picture or by hitting anchor....otherwise you may release before everything else is right. You want to be in control.

Here's my secret weapon: like squeezing the trigger of a gun, you pry the fingers of your hand open with your face (not as forceful as it sounds, just use that mental image).

When you are ready to release, imagine pulling back as your fingertips remain in place on your face. Imagine that your face is actually prying your fingers open as you draw your hand back. This keeps your hand close to your face, and gives you that surprise, yet controlled, release.
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Bill at work on January 17, 2006, 08:52:00 AM
Todd,
You may be on to something there. Hope to see you at Tollgate.
Bill
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Yohon on January 17, 2006, 09:02:00 AM
Double, the best way to learn what it feels like is to invest in a clicker  :scared:  It will show you what a suprise release is. With it installed correctly you dont think release. Great training aid for just that purpose and for what you seek. If your a nut case like me when it comes to finding that "suprise" release you may end up keeping it on your bow  :saywhat:  Len Cardinale told me that there are some personalitys that want/need assurances when it comes to certain aspects of their shooting....I am one of those "lucky" ones, you may be too.
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Todd Hathaway on January 17, 2006, 09:26:00 AM
Bill,
I'm looking forward to it! By the way, I'm calling dibs on third place  :)
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: FLHunter on January 17, 2006, 09:43:00 AM
Some information for you, things to think about.

In FITA archery the clicker is used as an aid for giving a very consistant drawlength in the shot to get consistant power out to the bow.  The FITA archer comes to draw, holds, takes time to aim(using a sight).  When the aim is good backtension is applied, when arrow passes behind the clicker, the release is triggered.  

I see the clicker as a good training aid in establishing a consistant drawlength.  The problem I see using a clicker for release purposes is that it can become a crutch.  Remember when using the clicker the release is triggered by the clicker, the archer is conditioned to respond to the clicker.  This is not a subconscious release!

Also the clicker used by the FITA archers is not the limb style clicker used by trad archers.  FITA folks use a clicker that is attached to the riser where the arrow is placed underneath the clicker.  When the arrow is drawn back to where the arrow tip passes behind the clicker it snaps against the riser.  Setting up the proper drawlength with the clicker is very critical in FITA archery.  In some cases if not setup right cases of target panic have developed where the archer has problems pulling through the clicker.
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Steertalker on January 17, 2006, 09:46:00 AM
Chris and Joel,

I am really not qualified to be giving shooting instruction but I can sort of relate to you guys and want to help.  My fear is that I could possibly give you bad advice and I sure don't want to do that.

However, I do want to say one more thing.  There used to be guy on this site that was immensely more qualified to be giving shooting advice/coaching than I could ever dream of being.  The one thing he preached over and over again was "bale" work.  All I can tell you is that the man knew what he was talking about.

If you are working on different aspects of your shot, then you need to do that on the bale and not while trying to hit a target.  You go to the target only after your shot is so ingrained in your mind and muscle memory that the only thing you are doing is aiming.

So Chris, the bale would be the place to "find those back muscles", so to speak.  And Joel, you could work on "squeezing the trigger".  Guys, in the end, the bale is the place where you develop "your" shot that is repeatable, shot after shot, without thought.  Thought is  reserved for aiming.

Hope that helped.
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Yohon on January 17, 2006, 01:01:00 PM
FLHunter, We are on the same page in ALOT of things BUT we'll just agree to disagree on the release NOT being subconciouse with a clicker.Those FITA guys arent ending there shot at the release and neither am I. The release is the farthest thought from my mind when I shoot at a target. I am aiming and subconsciously pulling with my back tension and half the time I cant even tell you that I heard the click. I can tell you that it is subconscious. I am still pulling way past the click too.It aint the perfect thing for everyone thats for sure but I can tell you that its the most consistent way I have found but I am still learning.

Brett, I am with you...this place aint the same without Tom  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: FLHunter on January 17, 2006, 01:31:00 PM
Yohan,

I'm really glad the clicker is working for you.    :)  

Your right the clicker is not for everyone and we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

   
Quote
The release is the farthest thought from my mind when I shoot at a target. I am aiming and subconsciously pulling with my back tension and half the time I cant even tell you that I heard the click. I can tell you that it is subconscious.  
I'm having trouble with your explaination    :confused:   If the clicker is there to trigger your release one would have to hear it, right? Then the mind has to process the response to the sound; think about it to react.  IMHO if your release is truely subconcious then you wouldn't need the clicker, no trigger required other than the aim is good.    

I have a friend from the Ft. Myers, FL archery club who is really messed up partly because of the clicker. This guy was at one time a very fine archer, but now suffers from forms of severe target panic.  He has tried about every possible cure from clickers, to metronoms, to switching to compound. His problems are now to the point where he is learning to shoot lefthanded.
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Yohon on January 17, 2006, 01:38:00 PM
AHHHHH switching to LH...been there...my goal this off season is to blank bale it till I can do without it. But everytime I posed this to Lenny and he said sure you can do it, just more mental discipline/bale work BUT dont forget you can always put the clicker back on. It also makes me feel good to hear that ol Lenny has used one for over 20 years.

What is metronoms????
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Steertalker on January 17, 2006, 01:51:00 PM
Yohon,

It sure isn't.

I envy you guys that live so close to Tom and Len.  Tom has invited me to come up there and get some personal one on one with Len, but it is such a long way for me.  Anyway, for now it's long distance communication thru emails, phone conversations and videos.

Tom has completely turned my shooting around.  The man knows his stuff.

Brett
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: FLHunter on January 17, 2006, 02:01:00 PM
Yohan I may have the spelling wrong for metronom, didn't look it up. But its the instrument that piano players use for the proper tempo or timing in playing music.  Not sure how it was to be used in archery, don't want to know!     :scared:    Other than it didn't workout.  

Unfortunately taking the cure for problems takes alot of dedication, time, and patience.  Blank bale time, giving up shooting targets and everything else for a good while until your shot is well established.  On the upside its well worth it!     :D     Once your shot is well established then and only then, do you start  shooting targets again.
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Yohon on January 17, 2006, 02:18:00 PM
Oh Lord....you are right I dont even want to know how you would apply that thing to archery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brett I am close but not close enough, although both are a phone call away....Toms the lucky one he sees Lenny a couple time a week. I know its  a long way from Texas but it would be worth it    :thumbsup:    Let me know if you ever make it up there tho, would like to be there and drink a few of Toms cold ones together   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Steertalker on January 17, 2006, 02:45:00 PM
John, I don't see myself getting up there anytime soon, but when I do I'll sure try to let you know.  However, I'm not sure what Tom drinks since he made fun of my Coors lite LOL.  Oh and he said depending on how well I shot would determine whether or not I even got to drink a beer at all.  May have to bring my own brew LOL.

Anyway, looking forward to the day I can get up there and meet you guys in person.

Brett
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: woodsman on January 17, 2006, 07:50:00 PM
Thanks Steertalker

Chris
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: cajunbowhntr on January 19, 2006, 05:44:00 PM
It helps me sometimes to focus on pulling the elbow backwards with back tension.Just push it back and relax your hand.


CB
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: XDogsoldierX on February 04, 2006, 06:39:00 PM
"don't expect to have a surprise release *using fingers* if you don't use a clicker of some type. When using a clicker you are lining up your sight (or arrow point, whatever...) in the process of drawing/anchoring the arrow. As you continue to draw the clicker goes off and (if all systems are "go") you release and follow-through. You didn't know when the clicker was going to go off, the decision took nanoseconds, therefore it was a surprise. When not using a clicker your mind "consciously determines" when you are going to release the string...... therefore there can be no surprise, just a point in your checklist where you've decided that all systems are go. Your decision time may be 1/2 sec. or LONGER. It's NOT IMPOSSIBLE to get a lively release without a clicker but it's a lot easier to get one with a clicker. Without a clicker you've got to prevent your muscles from starting to relax during that "1/2 sec. or longer" decision process (i.e. anticipating the release"...not my words but I tend agree with them...I know right down to the second when I'm going to release...thats just how I do it
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: steve morley on February 04, 2006, 08:09:00 PM
First teach youself to shoot the same, what I mean is that I tend to hold for four seconds, with some good blank bale work your subconcious can be taught this subconcious timing, each person will have their own subconcious internal clock so four seconds works for me and it might be three or five seconds for someone else.

Secondly in your mind try to and seperate the draw and aim from the release, I visualise myself just drawing and holding on target my subconcious internal clock just knows when to release, of course if it's too long or feels too rushed you must also be able to come down and start again.

The whole key to subconcious release is self control and good form.

Steve
---------------------------------------
2004 IFAA world Longbow Champion
Title: Re: The elusive subconscience release...???
Post by: Terry Green on February 05, 2006, 02:39:00 PM
My take on the 'elusive subconscious release'.....

For me, the release is not a 'suprise', its a 'non-event' that my subconscious runs.  It happens when the shot is right, and the shot is not based on any 'time schedule '.  

I see the bowhunter as having a need to be much more versital than just having one shot...or one shot sequence.  He should be able to shoot from a variety of cants and positions, and be able to have a subconscious release whether the shot dictates he 'holds' for 1/4th of a second, OR when the shot dictates that he 'hold' for 5 seconds.  I should be in total control of the shot that needs to be made. The shot should't control me by restraining me to only one certain shot/senario.  I've always looked at the bowhunter's shot as an athletic manuver rather than a methodical process.

Letting go of the string to me is no different than letting go of a baseball, bowling ball, football,.......subconcious running the body while the mind focuses on the 'target'.

Good thread guys.