Trad Gang

Topic Archives => Build Alongs => Topic started by: trashwood on December 06, 2004, 11:08:00 PM

Title: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 06, 2004, 11:08:00 PM
well my curiosty got the best of me.  I just couldn't help myself.  :) .  it had been in the back of my mind for sometime.  The straw that broke the back was I got Jaap video.  He commented that he had made glass bows using the rope and wedge......I got a strip of 0.30 glass coming, I got a 9/16" osage slat 58" long, I got wedges ground out.   I'm gonna make a Indian "D" bow with a glass back, wood belly.  

Dang I'm galde Tim Baker ain't around.  He be sending me a mail bomb.  56" ntn, glass back, osge belly, bendy handle Indian style circular tiller.  

got any thoughts (be nice now, it is a curiosity thing [they would have used it if they had it  :)  ] )

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 06, 2004, 11:10:00 PM
as i recall the first glass backed bows your jsut glass backed.  didn't St charles build some, maybe I remember Strunk build some???? any thoughts

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 06, 2004, 11:11:00 PM
I have built 4 bbo Indian D bows.  they shot like a lighting bolt

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 06, 2004, 11:13:00 PM
s I cover it with a snake skin and call if action sinew  :)

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: John Havard on December 06, 2004, 11:16:00 PM
Rusty,
We've actually talked about just backing our bows and not putting anything on the belly as one of the experiments we want to make.  Never have gotten around to it but it's an idea with merit.  As long as you use osage or some other relatively bomb-proof material in the belly it ought to work just fine.  Now, what you really ought to do is exchange that .030 glass for .030 carbon, reduce the 9/16ths slat to about 1/2 or maybe even 7/16ths and then you'd be smokin!  Can't wait to hear how this one turns out.  One suggestion is that you should probably double up on the glass across the back of the grip area on that bendy-handled bow.  It doesn't have a true back since that slat will have grain violations.
John
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Jeff Strubberg on December 06, 2004, 11:25:00 PM
If I remember right, the first bows Frank Eicholz did for Howard Hill were finished bows with a very thin piece of 'glass laminated to the back, clamped down over nodes and all.


Ought to work just fine, Rusty.  I would keep the glass thin enough to avoid adding much in the way of weight.
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: the Ferret on December 07, 2004, 07:49:00 AM
Bro Randy made one like that Rusty but only because his eastern red cedar wouldn't quit lifting a splinter. He no sooner glue one down and another would pop up so he just planned the back and using smooth on put on an .030 (if memory serves me) strip of clear glass. It worked ok.Sure was a pretty thing. Here's a pic (gosh he looks so young in this pic ha ha)

 http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcherywebpage/picofbowswevemade.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=179
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Jason Jelinek on December 07, 2004, 08:59:00 AM
I saw a few bows Jim Fetrow had that were glass backed.  Most had yew bellies.  I think a better experiment would be to build a sinew backed pony bow with a clear glass belly.  I won't take much set and it would be hard to tell that it had glass on the belly.

I've built a number of fiberglass laminated bows (many all-wood laminated bows too) using rope & wedges with a 2x4 form.  It works pretty well.

Jason
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: the Ferret on December 07, 2004, 04:31:00 PM
Jason how in the heck would you tiller it with glass on the belly? If you tillered it first and then tried to glue on the glass you'd have a heck of a time getting a good glue line.
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Jason Jelinek on December 07, 2004, 04:53:00 PM
You can tiller them by laying out a pyramid style bow.  Or you can pre-taper the osage slat based upon limb thickness tapers on previous osage bows you've done before.  Or you can tiller by adding sinew here and there (if you're sinew backing it).

One thing I've noticed is that the thickness tapers or at least limb thickness ratios on glass laminated bows and all-wood bows aren't too much different.  You want the tip about 1/4 as strong as the innermost part of the limb.  You can get there using a pyramid width taper (1.5" to 3/8") or by thickness taper (tip is 5/8 as thick as the inner limb) or a combination (tip is 1/2 as wide and 3/4 as thick as the inner limb) to get a circular tiller.  That strip of glass on the belly and back doesn't change things much, the 2xwide = 2xstiff, 2xthick = 8xstiff formula still works.

At least that's been my experience (glass laminated and all-wood) anyway.

Jason
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 07, 2004, 05:08:00 PM
now that is a lot to think about.   for the first time I just gonna tiller the belly

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Jason Jelinek on December 07, 2004, 05:16:00 PM
Rusty,

It would be interesting to hear what you tip and fade/dip measurements are on your pony/sliver bows.  I would like to know if they still fit into my experiences.

Jason
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 07, 2004, 07:29:00 PM
Jason, I'll take some good measurments but I can tell that 54" ntn 1" wide midbow, 3/4" tip is just about 7/16 thick (given room for the variuous densities)
rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 07, 2004, 07:38:00 PM
that is for a 45-50#draw at 26".  I don't think it will miss that 7/16 more than a 1/32" but I will get ya some good numbers.  Of course crown can make some difference, root end is ususally a bit thicker, and if it tension wood it can get pretty thin  :)   if it is compression wood I've had it go pretty thick

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Mike Byrge@home on December 07, 2004, 08:22:00 PM
Rusty,
I've made 6 glass-backed wood-bellied bows. (bought six pieces of glass)  All were flat-bow style in the 62" range though. I used bamboo flooring as the belly on a couple of them and they were kind of dud bows.  The rest were hickory / osage and they turned out well.  I used Urac to glue the glass on which I learned later is a no no,  but to my knowlege they are still holding together.
I've got several old longbows that are baked with glass only.
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 10, 2004, 07:26:00 PM
Wingnutty and I are gonna get together next Tuesday and put the bow together.  Think I will take it as a back up for the AZ javie hunt.  sinew bow for sunny and dry, action sinew for wet and damp  :)

I try to take some pics

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: the Ferret on December 10, 2004, 07:43:00 PM
wet & damp?...I thought we were hunting in the desert...desert=hot and dry don't it?
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: wingnut on December 10, 2004, 08:16:00 PM
Mickey,

Rusty and I have brocken many a drought in our hunting adventures.  Twoi years ago I got wet in my tent because it downpoured in the middle of the night in the desert.

Mike
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 10, 2004, 08:55:00 PM
Yep they said it had been that dry in 10 yrs....till wingnut and I got there.  Don't ya know sinew bows draw water  :) .  All ya gotta do to break a 10 yr drought is take a sinew bow hunting and sinew bow for back up

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 10, 2004, 09:03:00 PM
Wingnut and I decided to start the bow a 1&3/8" wide.  we can trim from there for a 55 to 60#er at 26" (natural draw).  think I'll make it 58" tip to tip and circular tiller it.

Wingnut thought about leaving the mid bow parrelell.  I don't know it sure is easier to hit the tiller with the limbs tapered from mid bow to the nocks.  Ya don't have to taper the belly near as much?????? hmmm don't know.

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 14, 2004, 07:50:00 PM
I had a slat of bodark ready to go but wingnut didn't like the looks of some knots in it so he traded me a piece of bullet wood (i have no idea what bullet wood is; looks dense and tuff though).  Wingnut touched up the gluing surface on the bullet slat.

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/glassabo1.jpg

wingnut was the glue man.  he doped up the glass (.030 black) and the bullet slat

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/glassabo4.jpg

i got jaap koppedrayer's video "all tied up in bow making".  ya need a rope (i used 1/4" manila) and lots of bamboo wedges.

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/glassabo4b.jpg

ya tape the lams together then warp them with rope in a screw pattern with the crossings about 1" apart

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/glassabo5.jpg

now ya reverse the screw pattern to a "X" crossing pattern

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/glassabo6.jpg

now ya whack a wedge under each of the crossings.  in this case the wedges go on the belly since we want to reflex in the bow

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/glassabo8.jpg  

wingnut and i put a modest amount of reflex in the bow about 1&1/4" and put it in the hot box

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/glassabo9.jpg

the finished slat and glass back was 15/32" thick.  60" long and had 1&1/4" reflex stressed by the wedges into the system

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 14, 2004, 07:57:00 PM
thanks for your help wingnutty.  i don't know much about glass backing.  the results was very good.  I got 1&1/4" reflex like we planned.  the glue line was very very good.  who would have thunk it.


i post some pics of the bow blank after supper (dinner to all ya yankees)


rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 14, 2004, 07:59:00 PM
omg ain't that a handsome fellower   :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: wingnut on December 14, 2004, 08:05:00 PM
Yes i am!!!  It was fun to have ya out and working on a bow again.  We haven't done that in a long time.  I remember when every other Sunday was a bowbee and now we have our own things.  I think that is goign to be one heck of a bow when your done.  If the weight is a little light we can add a lam to the back or the belly.

Mike
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Killdeer on December 14, 2004, 08:09:00 PM
Nice sox, Rsuty! You et yet? Dang, you've had at least fifteen minutes!  :rolleyes:  

Killdeer
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Dano on December 14, 2004, 08:11:00 PM
Even if it don't make a bow, you guys are havein fun looks like.

BTW, no doubt it'll be a shooter.
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 14, 2004, 09:08:00 PM
neat bow blank.

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/glassabo10.jpg

now i'm gonna leave the width alone, find the center line of the blank and taper the limbs pyramid style from the full width of the center line down to 3/4" side nocks.  I'll put a sting on it and see what I got.  soon or later i'll trim the length to pony bow length.  right now I'm curious about what i got  :)

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 14, 2004, 09:13:00 PM
top pic is the glue line.   :)
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Homan on December 14, 2004, 09:27:00 PM
Looks great Rusty. How do you like that video?
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Dave Bulla on December 14, 2004, 09:37:00 PM
Dang Rusty, something just don't look right seeing you working on a bow with all that clean empty space around ya.  Mike needs to clutter up that shop a bit don't ya think?

By the way, I might be giving you a call this weekend.
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: '46 on December 14, 2004, 09:45:00 PM
Rusty,I did a couple of short, 42 inchers like that, that were about 40#. One broke due to drawing it to about 32+"... just to see what it would take   :knothead:  . I think the other is somewhere out in the shop. Nice little bows.
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 15, 2004, 01:34:00 PM
Here is the bow with a string.  I trimmed the width to the above dimensions and cleaned up the belly a bit.  I took a couple of flat spots out of the mid-bow.  the bow is draw 40#@18" here.  guess that means the bow will come in at hunting wait.

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/glassabo11.jpg

the tips are stiff for the profile I'm after.  I will tiller the outer limb tips by tiller the width till I get down to 5/8" tips (i want them to look kinda Indian bow style [even if if contributes to a bit of hadn shock]).  

I want the bow to draw in a nice smooth circle shape.  maybe the last four inches of the tips could be left stiff.  I wouldn't mind that.

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 15, 2004, 01:37:00 PM
I have no idea what bullet wood is but it is dense and seems stuff (bullet proof) so for.  it works will with the vixen files.

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 15, 2004, 01:38:00 PM
btw when the tips get to 5/8" if i still need to get more bend I'll tiller the belly.  

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 15, 2004, 01:41:00 PM
I have really enjoyed using Jaap's (actually Japanese, it is way old) process.  it is simple quick anb ya can kinda design on the go.

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 15, 2004, 01:48:00 PM
right now the bow is 58&1/2" ntn.  after a bit I may trim it down and re-tiller it to 56" ntn

right now I want see what the gold standard is.  

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Bob at Work on December 15, 2004, 03:36:00 PM
very cool.  It's good to see ya doing what you love Rusty.  I can't wait to see how it turns out.  Some of my students want to make one like it now... LOL.
thanks,
Bob
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 15, 2004, 04:33:00 PM
Bob, it would be a good project.  I find sumpin totally awsome about mixing the very old and the very new.  it kinda speaks to me  :)

rusty

ps if ya have a hot box ya can carry everthing else ya need in a 5 gallon bucket...i like that a lot
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 15, 2004, 04:38:00 PM
here we mixed a wood working technique, very old and time proven, with modern material and a bow design that is almost as old as a bent limb  :)

hey does it get any better??  :)

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 15, 2004, 04:39:00 PM
of course I use shoot arrows with titanium trade points  :)

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: wingnut on December 15, 2004, 06:00:00 PM
Hey Rusty,

Bulletwood is Massuraduba.  

Massaranduba
Manilkara Elata
General Characteristics: heartwood is
dark brown and sapwood a light yellowish
brown, grain straight, luster moderate,
fine texture. Density: heavy density wood,
with 13% humidity = 1,010 Kg/m3

Now that thats cleared up get back to tillerin.

Mike
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 15, 2004, 09:11:00 PM
thank ya for the info....is bulletwood expensive?  

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Sparky on December 15, 2004, 09:41:00 PM
Mike,
 Is dat the wood ya gimmie at MoJam this passt year. I had forgotten the name you said when ya said " go pick ya a piece out Sparky". It looks like Ipe..and I had a piece of Ipe and da tow together kinda lok the same...  :knothead:

Nice thread guys...Mike I gotta come visit some time and see da new shop...

Sparky
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 17, 2004, 12:04:00 PM
well da bow has turned out plumb dandy.  I put it thru the speed trap and post some pics.  got good speed for a flat bow. fun to shoot  :)

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: wingnut on December 17, 2004, 12:13:00 PM
Sparky,

That was Supaparia.  It is another really good bow wood.  I have three bamboo backed bows right now that Connie Jason and I am shooting.

Mike
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 17, 2004, 12:17:00 PM
if bows could be compared to vehicles then a nice shooting r/d would be a family type car.....well these little bows are the ragtop jeeps.  The rides are comparable to shooting too  :)

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 17, 2004, 12:18:00 PM
and come to thank of it I guess the uses are comparable too

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Ray on December 19, 2004, 05:51:00 PM
Rusty don't let this thread die,Im still waitin for some finished pics please.Ray from NY.
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 19, 2004, 07:04:00 PM
thanks for the interest Ray.

I didn't build up the grip area with learther or cork but didn't wrap a longer than necessary area with leather.  the leather grip comes about 2" higher than the area pass.

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/aboglass1.jpg

i like a string keeper a lot so I can carry the bow in a bow case hooked to my quiver

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 19, 2004, 07:08:00 PM
this is the bow at full draw.  as ya can see I missed my tiller a bit.  bottom limb is on the left.  i intended it a bit sitffer and I wanted to leave the last four inches of both limbs stiff.  tiller could have used some more work but the little bow is shooting sweet now so I am reluctant to mess with it anyhmore.

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/aboglass2.jpg

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Dano on December 19, 2004, 07:10:00 PM
Looks great Rusty, whatcha think? how's it shoot? Sorry I posted on top of ya. Tiller looks good for a short bow.
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 19, 2004, 07:11:00 PM
this is the true and honest arrow speed with no attempt to fudge the results.  arrow was 10 grs per pound.

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/aboglass3.jpg

as the bow is tiller it is 49#@26"

it might have picked up the speed a bit if i had nailed the tiller

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 19, 2004, 07:13:00 PM
this is an average 12 yd group.  now this little bow does shoot like a 4# heavy riser recurve.  it has the mammers of exactly what it is.  I good shooting bendy handle abo style bow

 http://stavestobows.homestead.com/files/aboglass4.jpg
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Dano on December 19, 2004, 07:15:00 PM
Yep, she's a shooter.  :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 19, 2004, 07:15:00 PM
i left the tips 5/8" wide as to save the abo look.  had the tips been taken down to 1/2" we would have gotten a little sweeter shooter and I bet a few more fps.

it was a fun project and i like the results.  I'm gonna take it javie hunting in Jan and hog hunting in March.  I'm gonna beuld phase two after the hunts.  :)

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 19, 2004, 07:21:00 PM
thanks  Dano as ya can see the bottom limb needs some work.  top limb (imo) lookes pretty good.  

for bendy wide handle abot style the little bow is shooting nicley.  i like it.  we just gotta see haw it holds up.  

the Jaap processe was a great deal of fun and the glue line is prefect  :)

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Dano on December 19, 2004, 07:26:00 PM
Man, if your happy with the glue line that speaks alot. I need to make a bendy handled bow to see what your talkin about. I bet that bow holds up real good.
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Sparky on December 19, 2004, 07:33:00 PM
Dang Rusty...skuff up dat glass and pile on some sinew. Ought to be a fire breather...  :knothead:

 Nice bow, I like that circular tiller and stiff tips. I think it makes a dead in da hand bow. Specially with a stiff riser.

Sparky
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 19, 2004, 07:54:00 PM
LOL that is true Sparky or ya could just keep bendy the bow over your knee and driving in the wedges.  I was tring to build a gold standard here.  not too much reflex to see how the single glass backing would hold up.  pahase two will see if we can get one cranking  :)

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 20, 2004, 05:25:00 PM
I took the bow out to the cottontail rambles this morning.  All I manage was to throw a bit of dirt on a couple  that were in high gear.  Bow was right at home and a natural hunter  :)

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Dano on December 20, 2004, 05:55:00 PM
Huh? Imagine that a hunter builds a fine bow and it's right at home in the woods. Dang Rusty what's this world comin to?  :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: wingnut on December 20, 2004, 07:20:00 PM
That's cool, maybe you need an arrow that is just a smidge faster to hit them wraskley wabbits.

Mike
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on December 21, 2004, 12:09:00 PM
LOL -  need a tighter choke.  this one is throw a pattern to wide.

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Ray on December 24, 2004, 10:19:00 AM
Came out pretty sweet Rusty.Zero set on a little sliver of a bow--awsome,thanks for the pics.Ray/NY
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Timo on January 02, 2005, 09:27:00 AM
Up^ for Osagetree
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: trashwood on January 02, 2005, 09:46:00 AM
TTT for Osagetree

rusty
Title: Re: Jaap, gordon glass and a ponyh bow. :)
Post by: Rangeball on February 04, 2005, 10:16:00 AM
Rusty, thanks for the link.  A great thread and I learned alot...  :)